furcafe
Veteran
Not really, unless that hand is in your pocket (big pocket or small camera). It just makes it more obvious that you are using the camera, not wearing it. Easier for someone who wants to take your camera & more likely to attract the suspicion of someone who doesn't want their photo taken.
Agree w/your other points (insurance, not leaving Leica in a cab, etc.).
Agree w/your other points (insurance, not leaving Leica in a cab, etc.).
hepcat
Former PH, USN
I'm only three years older than you are. I remember clearly growing up amid a very violent society then... Vietnam, the Watts riots, the Chicago riots, desegregation, the Kent State shootings... it was a dangerous time. We live in different times now.
To share the view from the back side of the badge, I worked for San Diego PD from 1979-1990. From 1980 to 1985, SDPD officers were involved in some 140 gunfights. There were five cops killed and nine more wounded. Most of them I knew personally. Some very well. I could have been one of them very easily.
In the 1980s, Horton Plaza down town was a run-down ghetto, red light district. I worked Southeast San Diego and had to drive through downtown to get there every night. There were nights when I was half-way through my shift before I made it to my beat because of the downtown activity that happened right in front of me. There was seldom a night went by during those years when my handgun wasn't un-holstered hourly.
We could have very easily continued the siege mentality that cops had in the '70s, but we chose to reach out to the community and try to change the factors that causes violence. We were, I think, successful in many respects through the end of the 1980s and through the 1990s.
I retired three years ago from a department in the midwest. There is still violence on the streets, but it's directed in different directions. Nationally, law enforcement sees and has a very differently now than they had in the '70s. There's not nearly the random violence we saw in the '70s and '80s. The world, and the U.S. are a much different place than the insular society it was in the '70s financially, socially, and sociologically.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
John,
Out in the Long Island suburbs in the mid 70's I was just walking along not far from my house when a car with four guys drives by calling me names (ethnic slurs for Chinese/Asians). I gave them the finger, next thing you know they drove around the block to sneak up behind me, but I was ready for them.
Luckily the car was a two door, and I started denting the car with kicks denting in the passenger door. It became pretty clear that if the guy in the passenger seat tried to get out that he would likely take a beating. Already was prepared to slam the door on him if he tried to get out.
The driver had enough sense to just drive off. It is pretty easy for me to go crazy, because I was conditioned by danger and violence growing up. Like I said before, the first thing I learned in kindergarten is how to fight.
One time I asked my little brother about a scab on his forehead right between his eyes and my brother told me it was from a lit cigarette thrown from a car while he was riding his bike. When I asked him if this was an accident, he said "No," because the person in the car that threw it was laughing.
Rage is a powerful weapon. Hard to understand how a little kid can be taught to fight and be good at violence. Over the decades I've gotten good at it, because I've had more than my share.
Cal
Pfreddee
Well-known
Very interesting post and even more interesting replies. For a different (and rather extended take on the matter of self-defense), take a look at www.nononsenseselfdefense.com. It makes for very informative reading.
With best regards.
Pfreddee(Stephen)
With best regards.
Pfreddee(Stephen)
semilog
curmudgeonly optimist
In the United States, violent crime has been steadily declining for thirty years. Similar trends are seen in most industrialized nations.
Sparrow
Veteran
.. a thermonuclear device would be a useful deterrent ... but then which bag .......................
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Thanks for the dialog. What you say is true. The world is a very different place. I will also say that because of the NYPD I likely live in the safest city on the planet.
I know what I do is not correct for everybody, but I know that because I experienced more than my share of violence growing up that I have been conditioned to stand my ground and fight.
Cal
hepcat
Former PH, USN
Sometimes a good offense is the best defense. Other days, a tactical retreat carries the day... he who hits and runs away lives to hit another day. But the take-away lesson here is to always have a plan for every situation you're in. That's what situational awareness is about.
One of the many lessons I learned in my thirty five year career was that making assumptions about someone based on their appearances could be deadly. Some of you will recognize this, but one of the things that kept me alive, and the one lesson I always taught my trainees was "Be professional, be polite, and have a plan to kill every person you meet." That approach kept me alive and unharmed many, many times.
Sparrow
Veteran
Lumb Lane in Bradford ... at one time the most dangerous place per yard in Europe ... haunt of the Yorkshire Ripper and lately that Crossbow Cannibal chap, prostitutes and drug dealers The Barrack Tavern (picture below) was besieged and firebombed in the last riot ... the beer not that good anyway ... however there are some nice curries to be had, to which I will treat anyone who's in my hud anytime 
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Good advice. Somehow I vicariously learned the same, but this is a very highly refined skill. Somehow I lived to be older than I thought I'd ever be.
Cal
Cal, I will stick with my initial thought... machismo vs. high school kids is one thing. Facing real muggings from multiple people with weapons who want what you have is another completely. It happens to even the toughest of people. It's one thing to be confident in your abilities. It's another to be completely foolish. I've only lost one fight in my life and I've broken a nose or two. That doesn't mean I can defend myself against a group of criminals who practice violence for a living.
Wouter
Well-known
It's the picture that matters, not the equipment - choose your equipment in accordance with the environment you're going to. I live in Brazil and walk around in dangerous areas, and take pictures. I stand out for being european with grey hair and blue eyes. I wouldn't take out my M to all environments, just not to expose myself to the risk of loosing it to robbery, even if there is a code of conduct that works in 99 percent of cases (give it up without complaint and no violence happens) and maybe insurance would cover it. When I want to take the M to these neighbourhoods, I ask a friend to come along - improves security by 200 percent. Or I just take my Ricoh GRD or X100 - these take gorgeous pics as well. Blend into the environment, connect to the people, put out the antenna or instinct, and don't focus on just one type of equipment, that works for me.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
John,
I think you miss the point that part of the reason is, although I am not a criminal, I was forced to practice violence for a living, and I had more than my fair share. I am not trying to present myself as some tough guy street fighter.
I think it is hard for some people to fully grasp racial hate crimes unless you have been persecuted. Sadly had plenty of run ins with drunk men with pretty much the same dynamic as those teenagers that were older than me. I don't want to play the victim here, but you are of a later generation, and mentioned above in another post is that the world was a very different place in the 60's and 70's when I grew up. The point here is that I've had some experiences you might never know. For one having guns pointed at you really shakes you up, especially when you understand that on several occasions I was just plain lucky.
Do you really think that if I just turned from that cop in full riot gear that he would not of simply taken a step forward and swung his club? I think because I stood my ground and engaged with him that it made a turn for the better and likely saved me.
Similarly in East Harlem, when we were shooting, I can think of twice where we both stood our ground when we were engaged/challenged and everything turned out alright, but things could have turned the other way too and gotten ugly.
Cal
ottluuk
the indecisive eternity
a) Know where you're going. Study maps and memorize good routes as you explore the streets. Talk to people who know the specific areas you are interested in. Actually having a clue about where you are is even better than pretending it.
b) Dress for the occasion. You want to look like there's nothing but trouble to be had from messing with you. Wear nondescript, not-so-new clothes and no showy jewelry. Boots instead of sandals, jeans instead of shorts, maybe a simple leather jacket with no bling. Don't overdo: you don't want to appear like a thug, hobo or insecure poser.
c) Take a small shoulder bag for the camera and put the camera away when you don't expect to use it for some time. There's no need to advertise that you have it while you're just moving from one shooting location to another. For the M body with extras like spare film, another lens etc, look for a simple canvas or nylon shoulder bag that would fit a thick paperback and three cans of beer. That is a good size for several reasons :angel:.
b) Dress for the occasion. You want to look like there's nothing but trouble to be had from messing with you. Wear nondescript, not-so-new clothes and no showy jewelry. Boots instead of sandals, jeans instead of shorts, maybe a simple leather jacket with no bling. Don't overdo: you don't want to appear like a thug, hobo or insecure poser.
c) Take a small shoulder bag for the camera and put the camera away when you don't expect to use it for some time. There's no need to advertise that you have it while you're just moving from one shooting location to another. For the M body with extras like spare film, another lens etc, look for a simple canvas or nylon shoulder bag that would fit a thick paperback and three cans of beer. That is a good size for several reasons :angel:.
Cal, I don't mean to trivialize your past and experiences. I just don't want to see you get hurt by overestimating your abilities these days. Practice in the past is one thing, but I'm pretty sure you haven't had much practice in many years. It's better to be smart than to have perceived invincibility. I think the fact we go out in numbers helps us avoid trouble.
back alley
IMAGES
and age is a bitch...there is no way i can do now what i did 30 or 40 years ago...
goamules
Well-known
Several truisms that apply to violence are that you are more likely to get into a confrontation:
- Hanging out late at night.
- Hanging out in bars (see above).
- Going into poverty areas
- Being a young male (seen as competition)
- Being very different than the people around you
On that last bullet, racial bias is a terrible thing. But it goes both ways. When I lived in Hawaii, all of us young, white service members were constantly harassed and often attacked by local Hawaiians and Samoans. I've lived in the US Southwest for 23 years and it's apparant I'm still a minority, and a target. I've been body checked walking through the mall with my wife, had "locals" point their finger "gun" at me at sidewalk cafes as they drive by, etc. As I get older it tapers off, but there is a very aggressive component of America still.
- Hanging out late at night.
- Hanging out in bars (see above).
- Going into poverty areas
- Being a young male (seen as competition)
- Being very different than the people around you
On that last bullet, racial bias is a terrible thing. But it goes both ways. When I lived in Hawaii, all of us young, white service members were constantly harassed and often attacked by local Hawaiians and Samoans. I've lived in the US Southwest for 23 years and it's apparant I'm still a minority, and a target. I've been body checked walking through the mall with my wife, had "locals" point their finger "gun" at me at sidewalk cafes as they drive by, etc. As I get older it tapers off, but there is a very aggressive component of America still.
msbarnes
Well-known
man, this thread has turned into a different direction.
Not necessarily bad though. I think I will carry atleast a small messenger bag, i feel more secure this way. Whether it is safer or not, I don't know, because a theft might think that I am carrying an Ipad or something. Whether it is safer or not, I don't know, but it isn't like I hang around bad neighborhoods or visit them often. I wouldn't even have interest in shooting in one.
Not necessarily bad though. I think I will carry atleast a small messenger bag, i feel more secure this way. Whether it is safer or not, I don't know, because a theft might think that I am carrying an Ipad or something. Whether it is safer or not, I don't know, but it isn't like I hang around bad neighborhoods or visit them often. I wouldn't even have interest in shooting in one.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
John and Joe,
Know that I have the wisdom to not ask for trouble, and I know that my age is advancing, and times have changed, but sometimes gut instinct is all you really have in a dangerous situation, and I know it has saved me many times.
I am not a big man at 5 foot ten 152 pounds and most men are either physically bigger or heavier. I by no means feel invincible, and if anything feel vulnerable if threatened. Perhaps my only advantage is my past experience that has kept me relatively free from harm, but when bad things happen your life can depend on split second decisions that require full commitment.
All my life I've had violence nearby, it runs in my family. Back when I lived in Greenpoint, about 15 years ago, I lived in a Polish immigrant neighborhood where I did not belong. I was not welcomed, and I could feel the hostility that was kinda open. It could of been really easy to get my butt kicked in by some really big guys. I kept to myself and bothered no one.
Sometimes violence just happens.
Cal
aeturnum
Established
Man, people here have some harrowing stories.
My approach is this: get insurance. Don't start anything you can avoid, and don't worry about the value of your camera if you have to leave it. If you're more than $1000 into this and you're worried about losing money through robbery, get insurance right now.
I recently had an X-Pro stolen. It was insured and I didn't break a sweat over the theft.
My approach is this: get insurance. Don't start anything you can avoid, and don't worry about the value of your camera if you have to leave it. If you're more than $1000 into this and you're worried about losing money through robbery, get insurance right now.
I recently had an X-Pro stolen. It was insured and I didn't break a sweat over the theft.