Going...Going....

When Ilford announced that it was flirting with receivership a year ago, I bought a chest freezer large enough to freeze an ox in and ordered a five year supply of bulk Delta 400 in 35mm, 120, 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10. Well, the 8x10 won't last me five years, but a the rate I'm shooting 8x10 at the moment it will last a while. Current snaps are off of the oldest film in the freezer and when I run through a 100-foot roll of Delta 400, I replace it with a new roll of something else (Tri-X, e.g.). I realize that this is a little nuts. But I can scan film and print on an inkjet, or I can coat my own paper for an alternative process and contact print with the larger formats. But I can't make my own film and I'm not fooling around with mercury for tin-types/degeurrotypes. Sigh. I'm hoping for another 10 years before supplies get truly scarce.
 
Benjamin Marks said:
When Ilford announced that it was flirting with receivership a year ago, I bought a chest freezer large enough to freeze an ox in and ordered a five year supply of bulk Delta 400 in 35mm, 120, 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10. Well, the 8x10 won't last me five years, but a the rate I'm shooting 8x10 at the moment it will last a while. Current snaps are off of the oldest film in the freezer and when I run through a 100-foot roll of Delta 400, I replace it with a new roll of something else (Tri-X, e.g.). I realize that this is a little nuts. But I can scan film and print on an inkjet, or I can coat my own paper for an alternative process and contact print with the larger formats. But I can't make my own film and I'm not fooling around with mercury for tin-types/degeurrotypes. Sigh. I'm hoping for another 10 years before supplies get truly scarce.

For B&W, I think you'll get another 10 years - maybe not with Ilford or Kodak, but with one of the several smaller Eastern European or Chinese companies. They have a chance to backfill a gap when the big boys leave that sucking sound behind them - I've postulated that the supply will end before the demand does, if only by a little. So if you can adjust to what Foma/Forte/Svema/Lucky et al can produce (not all of which are bad, by the way) then you'll be ok for ten years at least. Maybe longer, but the way things are going...

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
Nice positive outlook, Bill 🙂. I tend to agree with your basic premise though.

I think it's interesting that of all the film formats and types, large-format has survived all these years and is experiencing a mini-renaissance. I can't imagine that this format is the most widely used even in the art community, so why has it survived when so many others haven't? A question to which I have no answers.
 
dkirchge said:
Nice positive outlook, Bill 🙂. I tend to agree with your basic premise though.

I think it's interesting that of all the film formats and types, large-format has survived all these years and is experiencing a mini-renaissance. I can't imagine that this format is the most widely used even in the art community, so why has it survived when so many others haven't? A question to which I have no answers.

I have a guess, but unlike my dazzling intellectual prowess when it comes to market research and analysis, this is just that, a guess (grin)...

As more and more LF photographers went to meet Ansel, more and more LF kit came onto the market at prices previously unheard of. This caused 35mm and MF enthusiasts to make the decision to give LF a try - and hey, why not, as long as the bar to entry had been lowered?

From those lured in by lower prices, a select few decided they liked it enough to buy some of the newer kit, never mind the high prices.

And there you have it. A minor upturn as the worm turns and the curtain is drawn.

Yes...sigh...I'm an incurable optimist.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
I'd love to see an affordable, modern large-format press camera. The Gran View 4x5 press camera would be ever so much fun, but it's way outside my budget for the forseeable future (especially if you factor in the cost of the fedora hat 😀).

Guess I'll have to get around to fixing my flash unit and shooting P/N film in my Polaroid in order to come close to that experience.
 
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glad I live in LA

glad I live in LA

At least for now.

Samys Cameras on Fairfax carries every imaginable film. Actually, not really obscure stuff. Not some of the specialty films, but everything else. And their prices are very stable. And when i want something they don't have on the shelf, it only takes a day or two to get it. No one carries Ilford HP5 is 4x5 in Seattle, that I know of anyway. Correct me if I am wrong, please. Samys has it though. They even have 120/200 Pan F - which is remarkably difficult to find.

I do find, however, that processing fees are climbing steadily. And printing fees are very expensive compared to the ease of production that the digital method allows. I mean, they are charging me the same price for truly crummy digital prints as they did for custom traditional prints - and the quality is way lower.

I would agree that the enthusiasts and professionals are the remaining market . . mostly enthusiasts because the professionals are noticing increasingly that they gain nothing in business by shooting film over high-end digital for 99% of clients. The prices will climb. It will become necessary to print your own stuff, send it off to mailorder developers, or just resort to scanning from film for those prints.

In some ways, I would have to say that I am really happy about some aspects of the new modernization or mutation, however you choose to see it. It would have been impossible for me to shoot a 4x5, get it developed, scan it, edit the heck out of it in Photoshop, and have it printed on the Lightjet. It is nice to be able to totally control the image in a way that the old masters would have only dreamt of. I used to spend 4-6 hours at a shot in the darkroom with the chemicals and the dimness to produce series of optimized images, but now, I can spend less time and get the product closer to my ideal - and spend less money at it.

I do believe that film will be around for a long time. Because people will always have a use for it. Large format, for instance, will have it over digital sensors for a very long time, seeing as there is no logical market for 500-1000 MP sensors that would warrant the production costs. So, I will comfortably straddle both worlds, using my old Graflex Crown Graphic 4x5 press camera, a nice film scanner and photoshop to make all those guys and gals with their 22MP H1s look bad.

Ansel Adams in the darkroom, perfecting one of his legendary prints surely practiced that segment of photography in a way that the digital age has threatened and will likely drive into history. Now, we can go into a photography gallery and see images that are pixelated, poorly presented, printed, etc (without intent specifically to make use of that quality as art in itself) and are selling for thousands of dollars. Beside classic prints that were painstakingly produced by traditionalists selling for similar prices. I know that nitpicking image quality in art is somewhat inappropriate, but the process is part of it. It should be, at least. I suppose, I see such mediocre methods of printing and presentation as one might see a painter that makes shoddy photocopies of his work on an office copier, frames them and sells them for what he might have sold the original. And this sudden abandonment of quality is showing up in nearly every medium of printed work from magazines to posters to ads and in galleries.

Digital users need to be put in their place. Know that it is really very obvious when someone uses digital. Maybe it doesn't matter though, because the viewing public never notices. Digital can't be passed off as film without considerable editing when caring viewers are looking. There are artists that shoot with 6-8MP DSLRS that know what they are doing, and respect the old attention to quality that the traditionalists never forgot - and they spend hours retooling a digital image to create film like tonality. But still, old Ansel Adams prints make the new digital work look aweful.

There is a gallery on La Brea, called the photographer's gallery or something like that, which sells some prints that are obviously terrible scans of old 35mm slides. This is a really good example of how the market is proving that obsession with quality doesn't pay off. Sadly. But to us, it always will, because the image means something not only for its subject, but for its presentation - the image itself, regardless of subject matter, means something and can be measured as a work separate from the subject.

Getting back to the post topic, with all that in mind, or not, film will be around for the highly detail oriented, process obsessed artists. Not so for the professionals - I can't imagine film surviving the professional test of speed and cost.

long post.
 
And a good post, but predicated on emotion rather than logic, I'm afraid. I'm with you on all your points about the superiority of film over digital for many purposes, and I think you hit the nail on the head about pros moving to digital and film remaining the province of the enthusiast and/or art photographer who cares about presenting the best possible quality.

But all of this matters not if there is no film to buy. "Film will always be around" is the battle cry - but the battle is over, and film lost. It is not logical to assume that film will always be around. There is a tipping point - when the remaining market drops below that magic number (whatever it turns out to be), the lights will be turned off and that's that. Each manufacturer will have their own set of requirements to exit from the market, but as they reach them, they will exit. With luck, they may make some huge runs on spec before they shut down, and that will keep us happy for a decade or so.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
dkirchge said:
I think it's interesting that of all the film formats and types, large-format has survived all these years and is experiencing a mini-renaissance. I can't imagine that this format is the most widely used even in the art community, so why has it survived when so many others haven't? A question to which I have no answers.
Like Bill, I will hazard a "guess". I think it has to do with the incredible quality of LF prints. Contact prints from perfectly developed LF negatives are unlike anything else in photography. Even if film goes the way of the Dodo I think LF photography will survive - using the older processes. There is a sensuality and beauty to LF prints that is impossible to ignore - or abandon. When film goes, if I can't get the kind of quality I want from digital, I will probably go back to something slower and MUCH larger.
 
zeos 386sx said:
Like Bill, I will hazard a "guess". I think it has to do with the incredible quality of LF prints. Contact prints from perfectly developed LF negatives are unlike anything else in photography. Even if film goes the way of the Dodo I think LF photography will survive - using the older processes. There is a sensuality and beauty to LF prints that is impossible to ignore - or abandon. When film goes, if I can't get the kind of quality I want from digital, I will probably go back to something slower and MUCH larger.
Let's not ignore the possibility of a large 4x5 digital sensor back for view cameras. I suspect by the time they get that large, the quality will be staggering...

Gene
 
zeos 386sx said:
Like Bill, I will hazard a "guess". I think it has to do with the incredible quality of LF prints. Contact prints from perfectly developed LF negatives are unlike anything else in photography. Even if film goes the way of the Dodo I think LF photography will survive - using the older processes. There is a sensuality and beauty to LF prints that is impossible to ignore - or abandon. When film goes, if I can't get the kind of quality I want from digital, I will probably go back to something slower and MUCH larger.

Unlike most 35mm and MF, with LF you always have the option of exposing something OTHER THAN film. Like emulsion-coated glass plates. And unlike film, this is something that COULD be produced by a small boutique (B&W only, of course) type of business.

And then you could develop the plate, and scan it. What an irony. 19th Century meets 21st Century technology - 20th Century takes a powder.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
GeneW said:
Let's not ignore the possibility of a large 4x5 digital sensor back for view cameras. I suspect by the time they get that large, the quality will be staggering...

Gene

I kinda doubt they'll make one. But it could happen, I suppose! It would be mighty cool, but what a hard drive you'd need!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
GeneW said:
Never underestimate technology ... 🙂

Gene

Never do. But one also has to consider demand. LF photographers are a crusty old bunch of farts. Digital? They'd rather eat a bug. So where is the market for this LF sensor? Unless it's just so cheap to make huge sensors that any old company can retrofit a standard 8x10 sensor into a LF Graflok frame.

But one can dream, can't one?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
bmattock said:
Never do. But one also has to consider demand. LF photographers are a crusty old bunch of farts. Digital? They'd rather eat a bug. So where is the market for this LF sensor? Unless it's just so cheap to make huge sensors that any old company can retrofit a standard 8x10 sensor into a LF Graflok frame.

But one can dream, can't one?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
But these old farts will eventually disappear and leave those LF cameras to a new generation. Another Bill once said "who would ever need more than 640K RAM?" Forget about today's demand. If they learn to make large and cheaper sensors, they'll create demand...

Gene
 
I'm not sure we'll ever see an affordable digital back that large. Just thinking of the fabs you'd need for manufacturing those sensors in quantity and of sufficient quality staggers the imagination. It's much more economical, at least right now, to shoot film and then scan it. It'll be interesting to watch the technology though and no matter what the recording medium, it's the image that counts in the end.
 
bmattock said:
Well, that's a bit of a problem. Ordinarily, the market will respond to demand by producing product. However, even if that were true in this case, the amortized cost of making the product must be spread across the customer base - in other words, with fewer customers, it becomes more expensive to sell the film at a profit - film gets really expensive.

And the usual business rules may not apply in this case. There is a high bar to entry - film producers are massive polluters in general terms. Old companies and factories might be 'grandfathered' but new owners and new factories would probably not be.

Well, in any case, time will tell. Best of luck to all of us.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

Started nice but...here we go again!

Bill M. - if you want to switch to digital - just do it!

Bill M. - if you want to do both film and digital - just do it!

Bill M. - if you want to do just film - just do it!

But please, enough already with the breast beating and lamenting about the "death of film" ad nauseum.

I love this sight - but this particular debate is long past its "sell by date".

Oh, and two other things:

1) I do not shop at WallyWorld (I beleive you mean WalMart). I can afford to patronize finer places that treat their employees better so do not care if they have dropped the shelf space devoted to film. (simple market reaction anyway so why ask?) - There is more than just "getting it the cheapest."

2) Bill M. - have you consider purchasing larger sized briefs or switching to boxers? 😉
 
I've read this post and the similar one and I can't help but feel lucky for living in my little bubble of film bliss. I've been living in Tokyo for about 4 months now and I have found a few favorite spots to buy film.

My favorite is Yodobashi camera in Shinjuku, which has wall to wall coolers of film and paper. They even have coolers down the aisle like you'd find holding frozen peas. Every time I go there I seem to find that they've stocked something new. I have noticed the prices are a little more, but I notice that with everything, from subway tickets to tacos. I only find myself complaining when I have to wait in a long line because there are so many people infront of me buying film. Their selection of Ilford is not tiny. Even the "everything-under-the-sun" electronics store down the street from me has a very respectable, refrigerated film section.

So, I guess when I hear people all willing to volunteer at the film hospice I'm left wondering why.

Yes there are many reasons why, logically, film will fade away, but at the end of the day, markets are driven by people, who for good or ill are better known for being illogical.

I just saw a film about people who collect 8-tracks. I am guilty of buying more than one vinyl record during a given month.

Did cameras ensure the demise of painting?

Did Ford's new model make me want to ditch my 1950s model that I kept shelling money into through high school?

That's one great thing about hobbies and freetime, we are free to relish in our illogical, pointless desires till Monday morning rolls around. I can paint a picture. I can make a coffee cup out of clay, even though buying one is quick and easy. I can develop my own film instead of dropping it off somewhere (well, I can as soon as I get finished buying my darkroom supplies).

Sorry for the ramble, but I would really like someone to give me an honest example of how any technology has caused a hobby to disappear.

Will the market change? Sure. Will film become more expensive?...show me something that doesn't, eventually.

I promise that on my deathbed, after a lifetime of film use, when the last roll of film is finally used up, probably by some RFF film hording nut with a Canonet, I'll make sure to retract my illogical statement that film will be around forever. 🙂
 
dkirchge said:
I'm not sure we'll ever see an affordable digital back that large. Just thinking of the fabs you'd need for manufacturing those sensors in quantity and of sufficient quality staggers the imagination.
In the September 2001 issue of Photonics Spectra, Brian Benamati of Kodak's Image Sensor Division wrote about the possible development of 100 megapixel sensors.
http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/digital/ccd/papersArticles/ultimateSensor.pdf

"Over the next several years, image sensors will transition to 20 megapixels and even 36 megapixels. Manufacturers may offer even higher-resolution solutions, but they will appear first in niche markets. Only time and price will determine how broad the market appeal will be for large-format, ultrahigh-resolution image sensors."

"The true limitation will not be the chip maker’s ability to deliver image sensors, but rather the practical trade-off between image quality and price that the photographic market is willing to bear."
 
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