Going...Going....

[wlewisiii]

Unlike most 35mm and MF, with LF you always have the option of exposing something OTHER THAN film. Like emulsion-coated glass plates.

Yep. Ultimately my Speed Graphic with it's even far older Tessar could be making old-fashiond negs long after all the rest have gone to the camera graveyard. (insert gratuitous Halloween reference here). Glass is still being made. Eggs are still being laid. Silver is still being mined. And yes, that ultimate situation is why I am learning as much as I can about producing _dry gelatin plates_ at sane ISO levels...

Still I do think that in looking at the largest picture, Bill, you sometimes loose track of the middle range. I, and others, are willing to give patronage to those suppliers that are willing to meet our needs. The question is where the balance between our demand and thier capacity will end up. As I read more stories about pros going back to film because of the limitations of digital (and yes, I do see more and more of these stories. They are, though, only anecdotal evidence and must be treated as such. Still, such has lead to major innovation in the past.) I do think that balance point need not be quite as grim as you would have it.

Am I then right and you are wrong? Fah. We both know better. What really happens will be something completely unimaged by _any_ of us. That is how history has _always_ played out. Even when the outline has followed some broad historical trend, the detail is never the same. We forget that at our peril.

And even if I am wrong about everything else, it will always be possible to use the information in "The Silver Sunbeam" (John Towler - 1864 - available for free on the net). In the end, it's really that simple.

William

 

[nomade]

For the egyptian currency digital is still expensive, not all people can get a digital camera and if i got one it's not gonna satisfy me, the min of ra digital satisafction would be mroe than 3000L.E and don't try to convert, it's quite the same here...3000$ like 3000L.E except that an egyptian pound is harder to get for most of the normal people...So i guess we'll be suing film for quite a long time ahead, cause digital means pc+printing costs also...And most of the normal people who are using film to photograph their children don't have that...

Except for a few millions of people, not everyone can buy digital and even if u can why buy a camera with 500L.E + when there's an automatic film camera that's worth 25 L.E +++

The problem is that is hard to get pro films, it's not hard, it's impossible almost. And even if u did(well i ahven't developped yet, mayeb that's my fault) someone would screw it all, and if eh processed it well, he's gonna do soem mistake on the print, that u'll spend hours fixin it on ur photoshop...And how i hate the paper...The guy asked me to be patient nad here i am...

Actually the normal film prices are gettin low currently because most of people felt it's expensive to buy a film and then process, the photography market is low...And they are trying to decrease the prices, but thinking again, we r depending on international companies and prices isn't just in our hands...Actually film prices here need to diminish a bit..!

 

[bmattock]

Started nice but...here we go again!

I didn't start the debate, just responded to it.

Bill M. - if you want to switch to digital - just do it!

Bill M. - if you want to do both film and digital - just do it!

Bill M. - if you want to do just film - just do it!

You misunderstand me. I'm not urging anyone to switch to anything. I analyzing the current situation and making predictions about the future availability of film based on factors known to be true. The future availability of film affects us all. But we can pretend it doesn't, if you prefer.

But please, enough already with the breast beating and lamenting about the "death of film" ad nauseum.

Fair enough.

I love this sight - but this particular debate is long past its "sell by date".

I was unaware that you were being forced to read it. Sorry.

But we're keeping it civil, and in any case, when people say 'There will always be film', I feel obliged to explain why there might not be. If they don't wish to believe that, that's fine.

Hey, I could be wrong! [hubris] I'm not, [/hubris] but that's ok.

Oh, and two other things:

1) I do not shop at WallyWorld (I beleive you mean WalMart). I can afford to patronize finer places that treat their employees better so do not care if they have dropped the shelf space devoted to film. (simple market reaction anyway so why ask?) - There is more than just "getting it the cheapest."

The rest of the world shops at Walmart. It has nothing to do with getting it the cheapest when you're evaluating the market. When Walmart, et al, stop selling film entirely to Joe Sixpack, the pro shops you patronize won't have bulging shelves of refrigerated pro film, either. The same companies make both pro and amatuer film, and they derive a lot more money from the sale of the cheap stuff. When they can't make money selling to Joe, they can't make money selling to you and I.

When General Motors goes bust, there won't be any Chevrolets. And no Cadillacs, either. Sniffing and saying that you'd never be caught dead in a Chevy doesn't make the problem with GM go away.

2) Bill M. - have you consider purchasing larger sized briefs or switching to boxers? 😉

Commando, baby. I'll bet you wanted to know that, huh?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[dostacos]

Two Tacos, that's a funny description of LA! 😀

Gene

funny....but accurate!

and I just did that 35 mile drive, picked up 20 rolls of ARISTA B & W ISO 400

and a short roll of ARISTA color film [12 exp] for a specific project, shooting a carousel one shot with the carousel blured and one with the backround blured and the horses in sharp detail.

tomorrow I will make the 40 mile one-way trip to take some shots and then drive home 😱

Dan

 

[DougK]

Depressing... I went into my local Ritz Camera today to pick up my slides and asked if they had any 120 film. There were only two rolls of T-Max in the whole store, one ISO 100 and one ISO 400.

I bought 'em both.

 

[ch1]

Depressing... I went into my local Ritz Camera today to pick up my slides and asked if they had any 120 film. There were only two rolls of T-Max in the whole store, one ISO 100 and one ISO 400.

I bought 'em both.

That's why there is the "web". Check film availabilty via a Google search or on eBay etc. There's plenty of it out there!

If you can post here - you can order film from anywhere!

As film becomes a "specialty interest" new avenues of puchasing and processing will become available.

The world is not ending, it's just evolving. 😀

 

[RJBender]

I think it is important not to confuse mass market film sales (ie 1 hour colour neg) with enthusiast / professional film sales. I personally would never buy slide film from anywhere that doesn't have a fridge to put it in. I've used Tri-X almost exclusively for almost ten years for black and white and it has never been widely available in the UK outside specialist camera shops in this period. In the UK online film sales have been massively undercutting traditional film outlets for years. In short, places like Boots ( a large UK pharmacy chain ) are not a first choice for us sophisticated urban rff'ers. I put walmart in the same bracket obviously film sales will decline but to what extent is the question. 120/6/7 were the mass market films for years when 35mm came along they declined but 120 survived. In my mind a specialist company like Ilford may be better placed to survive than giants like Kodak but even they will have to adopt a strategy of managed decline after a while. If really kickass digital rangefinders or medium format cameras appear the demise might be quicker. I did also see a prototype drawing many moons ago for a digital sensor that could be put into any analogue camera like film with the 'tongue' being the sensor. Maybe this is the long term future for classic cameras ?

It sounded like a good idea but it never materialized, Toby.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0109/01091702siliconfilmvaporizes.asp

R.J.

 

[RJBender]

Not to sound argumentative or anything, but why should I care if Walmart is scaling back film inventory? I've never once set foot in a Walmart store before, but I can tell you that the two photo stores I frequent regularly have large stocks of film and it's been that way for at least the last five years or so. In fact, their film is displayed rather prominently alongside all of the digital gear they also sell.

You have never set foot in a Wal Mart? 😕 I suggest you watch South Park episode 809 Something Wallmart This Way Comes .

Wal Mart sells tons of stuff to the average consumer. When film disappears, the herd panics, rushes to the digital camera counter and sells their 30 year old film cameras at garage sales. Well, maybe. 😛

R.J.

 

[RJBender]

...Sorry for the ramble, but I would really like someone to give me an honest example of how any technology has caused a hobby to disappear...

What happened to home movies with Super 8 film? 🙄 That damn video technology killed my super 8 hobby! Super 8 cameras that listed for $600 30 years ago now can be found at the Good Will store for $5.

R.J.

 

[bmattock]

What happened to home movies with Super 8 film? 🙄 That damn video technology killed my super 8 hobby! Super 8 cameras that listed for $600 30 years ago now can be found at the Good Will store for $5.

R.J.

Ah, yes. My dad used to throw poker parties in the basement when I was a kid. I think they had a projector - for something they called 'stag films'. Must have been some nature movie.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[nwcanonman]

Ah, yes. My dad used to throw poker parties in the basement when I was a kid. I think they had a projector - for something they called 'stag films'. Must have been some nature movie.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

.......................
Ha Bill,
My dad had one of those too. Us kids had to play outside while he and his buddys watched it.
It was actually labeled "WILD LIFE" ! LOL. 😀

 

[dogbunny]

Umm... I have several super 8 cameras that I still use. If you look on ebay they are fetching a bit more than 5 bucks. and film is still being made. A company even started to manufacture the film with sounds support.

Let's hear it for the obsolete....*cheer* 🙂

 

[Benjamin Marks]

Never do. But one also has to consider demand. LF photographers are a crusty old bunch of farts. Digital? They'd rather eat a bug. So where is the market for this LF sensor? Unless it's just so cheap to make huge sensors that any old company can retrofit a standard 8x10 sensor into a LF Graflok frame.

But one can dream, can't one?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

Bill: LOL. Well, maybe that's true. I tend to think that enthusiasts are enthusiasts. I tend to choose my camera/lens/film based on my subject. If I can get away with 8x10, I'm there. (F22, a hernia and be there, that is). Like a lot of hobby-ists, I moved more towards smaller formats when my kids were born (they move a little fast for 4x5 and up). Still, they won't be small forever and I plan on being able to reach into the deep freezer for an 8x10 sheet of Tri-X when they do. Magical rather than rational thinking? Perhaps. But if the photography's not fun, why do it? Still, that 8x10 will make a nice museum piece when the last sheet of film rolls off the production line. . . . Hey wait, I'll have to build the museum too.

Ben Marks

 

[wlewisiii]

Like a lot of hobby-ists, I moved more towards smaller formats when my kids were born (they move a little fast for 4x5 and up).

Oh, I dunno, use a Speed Graphic if you want to have 4x5's of your kids 🙂 That sport finder and focus scale can work really well. 😀

William

 

[RJBender]

Umm... I have several super 8 cameras that I still use. If you look on ebay they are fetching a bit more than 5 bucks. and film is still being made. A company even started to manufacture the film with sounds support.

Let's hear it for the obsolete....*cheer* 🙂

Dogbunny,

The film disappeared from store shelves in the USA around 1990 if I recall correctly.
I think it was priced at around $9 for 5 minutes worth of film. I don't think that price included processing. What do you currently pay for film and processing?

R.J.

 

[DougK]

That's why there is the "web". Check film availabilty via a Google search or on eBay etc. There's plenty of it out there!

If you can post here - you can order film from anywhere!

As film becomes a "specialty interest" new avenues of puchasing and processing will become available.

The world is not ending, it's just evolving. 😀

I know I can order over the web and do fairly frequently, it's just that this particular store prides itself on offering more supplies for "the advanced photographer," whatever that means. It's the first time I haven't been able to buy 120 transparency there. At least they reaffirmed they would be willing to order anything I want and have it in-store within five days. That's just as quick as I can get it from the web stores without paying exhorbitant shipping every time.

 

[Will]

When Ilford announced that it was flirting with receivership a year ago, I bought a chest freezer large enough to freeze an ox in and ordered a five year supply of bulk Delta 400 in 35mm, 120, 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10. Well, the 8x10 won't last me five years, but a the rate I'm shooting 8x10 at the moment it will last a while. Current snaps are off of the oldest film in the freezer and when I run through a 100-foot roll of Delta 400, I replace it with a new roll of something else (Tri-X, e.g.). I realize that this is a little nuts. But I can scan film and print on an inkjet, or I can coat my own paper for an alternative process and contact print with the larger formats. But I can't make my own film and I'm not fooling around with mercury for tin-types/degeurrotypes. Sigh. I'm hoping for another 10 years before supplies get truly scarce.

Now, this is an idea!

I think I recall the company you're referring to - they took a lot of venture capital to heaven and disappeared after awhile. Nice idea, but...

The problem is this - all the classic rangefinder cameras in the world are worth approximately their value as melted-down steel and glass to most of the world. We know better - but we ain't the market, and the market don't care.

Ain't I just a little ray of sunshine?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

An article about Leica DMR in a chinese magazine called "Photographer's companion" had a mention on just that. The company was called Silcon Film and the phototype EFS-1.

Just think (dream) if NPC make digital backs, maybe 6MP, 1.5x conversion ration, adaptable by camera repairer/craftman on different cameras, costing around 700USD

For B&W, I think you'll get another 10 years - maybe not with Ilford or Kodak, but with one of the several smaller Eastern European or Chinese companies. They have a chance to backfill a gap when the big boys leave that sucking sound behind them - I've postulated that the supply will end before the demand does, if only by a little. So if you can adjust to what Foma/Forte/Svema/Lucky et al can produce (not all of which are bad, by the way) then you'll be ok for ten years at least. Maybe longer, but the way things are going...

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

Bill, if I remember that right, Lucky was brough by Kodak or at least 2nd larget shareholding intereset...

Lucky B&W, I have no experiences with it, as I can't find it in Hong Kong and Guangzhou (Largest city in the Guang Dong province). I think other city do have it (read it from chinese photographic forums).

As for other films, I haven't been able to get Ilford in Hong Kong (not searching hard enough I guess), Colour Slice & C41 B&W are still been stock. Last time when I was in Guangzhou, I got myself some 120 BW400 (RMB 14/roll, maybe $1.8 USD) and the shop owner said she can't get it anymore 😱



As for 8mm movie cam, I saw a shop in HK offer conversion to DVD (or VCD? forgot). I asked the shop owner are films still available, he said films are still available and someone can still get them develop (in Hong Kong). Last thing I want is another expensive habit...... :bang:

 

[RJBender]

An article about Leica DMR in a chinese magazine called "Photographer's companion" had a mention on just that. The company was called Silcon Film and the phototype EFS-1.

Just think (dream) if NPC make digital backs, maybe 6MP, 1.5x conversion ration, adaptable by camera repairer/craftman on different cameras, costing around 700USD

Silcon Film is bankrupt, Will.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0109/01091702siliconfilmvaporizes.asp
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0105/01050703siliconfilmships.asp

It's probably easier to design a new digital body for a particular lens mount than it is to equip a vintage film camera with a digital sensor.

R.J.

 

[bmattock]

Bill, if I remember that right, Lucky was brough by Kodak or at least 2nd larget shareholding intereset...

Lucky B&W, I have no experiences with it, as I can't find it in Hong Kong and Guangzhou (Largest city in the Guang Dong province). I think other city do have it (read it from chinese photographic forums).

As for other films, I haven't been able to get Ilford in Hong Kong (not searching hard enough I guess), Colour Slice & C41 B&W are still been stock. Last time when I was in Guangzhou, I got myself some 120 BW400 (RMB 14/roll, maybe $1.8 USD) and the shop owner said she can't get it anymore 😱

Kodak won a bidding war with Fuji and was given the right to purchase 20% of Lucky, as well as building them a new plant (modernizing the old, but that's what it essentially was). This is one rare instance - normally when Kodak makes an investment in a company, they buy a controlling interest. Not this time.

Lucky film is now available through J and C Photo here in the USA (J and C Photo - Lucky Film). I bought a few rolls, haven't tried them yet. Leica did an extensive test several years back, didn't like the stuff. May be better now - don't know.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[dogbunny]

Dogbunny,

The film disappeared from store shelves in the USA around 1990 if I recall correctly.
I think it was priced at around $9 for 5 minutes worth of film. I don't think that price included processing. What do you currently pay for film and processing?

R.J.

Film runs about ten dollars for 3 1/2 minute roll. Color and B&W are still made. Processing is between 15-20 bucks. Is it insane? Yes. So I don't take a super 8 out with me on a drunken night with friends. I plan what I'm going to do and I do it. I usually just run it through a viewer to watch it, though I sometimes have it put on vcd for gifts or whatever.

From its beginnings as the home movie medium of the 60's, Super 8 film is alive and well and making it possible for virtually anyone to bring the unmistakable "look and feel" of real film to the screen.

As students of the art, many of today's professional filmmakers created their first films with Super 8. Thirty years later, this small-gauge medium still provides an easy, inexpensive way for students and enthusiasts to work at film resolutions and color depths that still are unmatched by the latest video technologies. Not surprisingly, the magic of Super 8 has even found its way into some of today's hottest music "videos."

Whether you're a devotee of the format, or just a little curious, visit our pages and find out all there is to know about Super 8.

Guess it goes to show photographers are not the only ones that Kodak is milking. That's off their website.

Back to the original topic. If this absurd little medium is still tredding water I can't really see film dying off . . . at least in my life time. And like BackAlley said, It's my ever I care about.