Good 4X5 for first large format camera

[kuzano]

Easy, low cost entry.....

Easy, low cost entry.....

Many years ago.. late 80's.. while living in Cincinnati, I drove up to Columbus Ohio. I was prompted by the multiple page ads that Columbus Camera Group placed monthly for years in the old newsrag paper magazine, Shutterbug.

I encountered a BIG old church (they are still there). Walked in and rummaged through cardboard boxes of camera gear and looked through the glass cases. Ended up walking out with a complete, working Speed Graphic with an Optar 135 in Graphex shutter. $125.

To this day, still think that was my best entry into LF photography. Have had many other models since, both wood and metal folding and monorail.

Conclusions to keep this simple:

Holding out for working rangefinders is a waste of time. I've never, ever shot handheld. Always on a tripod and using ground glass focus.

Back movements are over-rated for many uses, unless you have some very specific needs. You can grow into that. I've never done studio or product shooting. Can easily get by with back tilt, and can tilt the camera for most needs.

Emphasis on a basic array of front movements. Nothing too exotic required up front starting out.

Name brand requirements... a great way to up the cost. It's a simple light tight arrangement with some basic movements that a Graflex can do as easily as an Ebony, Canham or such.

After all the variations of camera's I've used over the years, both field, technical, and monorail, I'm back to two Graflex Super Graphics, purchase in "user" condition with non working rangefinders. I've stripped out all the electronics and rangefinder mechanisms, cutting their weight by 30-40%. They have ample movements for my needs. The bellows tend to be flexible and light tight on all I've owned after all these years. (I've had 5 of them).

I don't worry about them. If the wind blows them over, I doubt any serious damage would occur. Even then, I'm not out much in expense. I leave one attached to the top of my tripod in lieu of a carrying case.

Now, just to show you what one can do with one of the most common wood field camera's ... The Tachihara, I am going to post the web site of a friend who has done the most important thing you can do with a 4X5... Learn your camera, film and pay attention to the photography. Stop wasting time on Gear Gas.

The majority of these images were shot over the years with a Tachihara, 3 lenses, Fuji Velvia 50 with almost no experimentation outside that list.

Photography first... Gear second, other than condition and maintenance. Bruce's equipment is first class, yet reasonable in cost.

http://www.brucejackson.com/

Now, your ultimate needs may dictate otherwise as you grow into LF, but this is just an example of one man's work and his dedication to the craft, without getting lost in the "Gear" race. One camera, one film, three lenses for the most part. Bruce does shoot medium format occasionally, but not all that often.

 

[Landshark]

Spend some time at LFPF before you jump in.
Not all cameras have all the movements you want to play with.
Speed/Crown Graphics have only front shift and back tilt, rear tilt is not generally used i LS. no movements on the rear at all, small lens boards, and limited bellows draw. They're mostly used with small lenses from 90-135mm. because of these limitations.

Field cameras give more versatility than the Graphics but less than a view camera. Usually a very acceptable compromise unless you do Architectural work, then you definitely want a fully adjustable view camera.

For 90%(?) of LS/CU/general work a field camera will do fine.

 

[Jamie123]

Or you can be a pretentious poser and drop just $4000 to $6000 on an wooden Ebony/Chamonix/Shen-Hao and a few new lenses....

Wow..talk about being pretentious! Anyways, the $4-6k figure only really fits the Ebony. Chamonix and Shen-Hao are both comparably cheap brands.

It's true that the Sinar monorail view cameras that can be had for a pittance these days are exceptional cameras. I work for a photographer who uses a P2 in the studio and it's a great camera. Nonetheless I got a Chamonix for myself as it's just more practical and it's one of the cheaper field cameras I can afford.
Not only would I not use a monorail outdoors (I don't have a car so I mostly walk with my equipment) I wouldn't even know where to store it in my apartment.

Not everyone wants to be a "camera whore" as you put it. Many people (I count myself among them) do not really enjoy constantly buying and reselling stuff. My time is better spent doing more enjoyable things. I never buy something already with the intention to sell it again. If I buy something and sell it again later it means that I failed to make the right decision in the first place.

 

[tlitody]

yeah don't buy new because your first LF camera won't be your last. You can sell used one for what you bought it for.
Just don't buy a compromise because you're not sure what you want it for. My advice above was given based purely on you wanting a landscape camera. It's a question of getting the right tool for the job.
For example if you want to do macro work then the Technika is not the right tool because it focuses using the front standard only. For macro a camera with rear focussing standard is better. If you want to do architectural work a technika is OK but not with very wide angle lenses so a camera which can take a bag bellows would be better. But if you want hand held RF then a monorail would be a really dumb idea. Not versatile enough for that. Basically a technika is good for most things except for macro or very wide angle with shift. Monorails don't have rf's and are bulkier and not always very rigid. Wooden field cameras don't have RF's and often have limited maximum focal length. But they are lightweight.

 

[jpa66]

After a bit of research ( thank you gentlemen ) the type of camera I'm looking for is beginning to reveal itself. I definitely want it for landscapes only at this point. I guess that I don't need all of the movements, but I'd like a few of the basic ones ( at least tilt and either rise and fall or shift ). A coupled rangefinder is not a necessity.

And I'd like it relatively light - I'm used to carrying a heavy camera bag ( or backpack ) when I go out ( Rollieflex, Bessa, two or three lenses ) and while it gets annoying at times, I'm still fortunate enough that my body can handle it without incident. So, I can probably go heavier than what most people would think of as "light" ( certainly in a back-pack ).

You've all given me a lot to think about, and I appreciate it greatly. This isn't a GAS purchase, it's just something that I've been thinking about for awhile, and I've finally decided to take the dive ( although I'm sure that I'll take my time ). So, I'll take into account all of the advice here and check out more information, then decide on a camera.

Thanks again for all the assistance.

Jan

PS. Frank - thanks for your info on the Finger Lakes. My wife and I had a wonderful time and wished we could have stayed longer!

 

[shadowfox]

The bug has finally bit me, and now I'm looking into getting a large format camera. I'm looking into a 4X5, and wondering what would be an easy camera for a beginner. I'd like it to be coupled, fairly easy to set the shutter speed, etc., and not too unwieldy.

Any cameras that fit the bill? Keep in mind that I'm here on RFF because I like the benefits of rangefinders. I'd just like to experience the larger format, especially for landscapes.

Thanks,
Jan

Jan, alternatively you can make one yourself.
Any Polaroid pathfinder series that has working shutters and good lenses will fit the bill, and the process is not as hard as it looks.

Feel free to read my experience making one here. The result is a compact 4x5 that can be used on site easily, and it even folds for easy transport in a backpack.

 

[lilmsmaggie]

I spent a year. Reading and posting on http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum and trolling KEH and eBay for lenses. I considered the usual suspects, e.g. Crown Graphic, Linhof Technikardan, Shen-Hao, Tachihara, and Wista. In the end, I bought a Chamonix 45n-2 and picked up some used Rodenstock and Schneider glass (90, 135, 210, 350).

It's my first probably not last LF camera. But I love it. Lightweight, compact and versatile.

Just look at it there on the left. Ain't she purdy?

 

[JoeV]

I'm sure people will insist on telling you that a Speed Graphic is too heavy, and lacks sufficient movements, for a bona fide LF camera. That's fine, each to their own.

But I will say this about Speed Graphics (having owned an Anniversary version for about 20 years): the difference in weight between a press camera like the Speed and a field camera is much less than the difference in weight between various tripod models you might consider.

Also, for the type of shooting I do, I find little need for movements.

But the principal advantage I find with using a Speed Graphic is the curtain shutter opens up a whole new world of possibilities with using adapted optics as lenses, like old barrel lenses that lack integral shutters, or using meniscus lenses, or my favorite: the lens cell from a 7x50 binocular, which yields a 150mm f.l. lens whose wide open aperture is F/3 with loads of off-axis blurriness, great for portraits or still-lifes.

I even use the curtain shutter for pinhole exposures, with a pinhole adapted to a homemade lens board, where I release the shutter in the "T" position with dark slide over the pinhole, wait for the camera's vibrations to settle out, then start the exposure.

Speed Graphics, with their curtain shutter, are the most flexible all around large format camera available, especially with a working rangefinder cam calibrated to the main lens, giving you rangefinder focusing for large format documentary capability. It is uses like this that reminds one of the myriad possible alternative uses for LF cameras besides the stereotypical landscape subject matter.

~Joe

 

[Roger Hicks]

I'm sure people will insist on telling you that a Speed Graphic is too heavy, and lacks sufficient movements, for a bona fide LF camera. That's fine, each to their own.

But I will say this about Speed Graphics (having owned an Anniversary version for about 20 years): the difference in weight between a press camera like the Speed and a field camera is much less than the difference in weight between various tripod models you might consider.

Also, for the type of shooting I do, I find little need for movements.

But the principal advantage I find with using a Speed Graphic is the curtain shutter opens up a whole new world of possibilities with using adapted optics as lenses, like old barrel lenses that lack integral shutters, or using meniscus lenses, or my favorite: the lens cell from a 7x50 binocular, which yields a 150mm f.l. lens whose wide open aperture is F/3 with loads of off-axis blurriness, great for portraits or still-lifes.

I even use the curtain shutter for pinhole exposures, with a pinhole adapted to a homemade lens board, where I release the shutter in the "T" position with dark slide over the pinhole, wait for the camera's vibrations to settle out, then start the exposure.

Speed Graphics, with their curtain shutter, are the most flexible all around large format camera available, especially with a working rangefinder cam calibrated to the main lens, giving you rangefinder focusing for large format documentary capability. It is uses like this that reminds one of the myriad possible alternative uses for LF cameras besides the stereotypical landscape subject matter.

~Joe

Dear Joe,

My heaviest Toho 45 monorail, full movements front and rear, with lens (120/6.8 Angulon), weights 3-1/2 lb in my kitchen scales. What does your Speed Graphic weigh?

I've nothing against technical cameras, but if you want movements and extension, a press camera doesn't really cut it. And yes, I've owned monorail, press, technical and rigid-bodied 4x5 inch cameras.

For the 'myriad possible uses' I might well consider an MPP or Linhof, but never a Speed Graphic. Or an MPP Micropress for that matter. Press cameras are fine for landscapes, though if you don't need swings/tilts and can live with modest rise/fall/cross though an eccentric lens panel, my lightest Toho is 1-1/2 lb, albeit without lens or focusing hood.

Cheer,

R.

 

[JoeV]

Dear Joe,

My heaviest Toho 45 monorail, full movements front and rear, with lens (120/6.8 Angulon), weights 3-1/2 lb in my kitchen scales. What does your Speed Graphic weigh?

I've nothing against technical cameras, but if you want movements and extension, a press camera doesn't really cut it. And yes, I've owned monorail, press, technical and rigid-bodied 4x5 inch cameras.

For the 'myriad possible uses' I might well consider an MPP or Linhof, but never a Speed Graphic. Or an MPP Micropress for that matter. Press cameras are fine for landscapes, though if you don't need swings/tilts and can live with modest rise/fall/cross though an eccentric lens panel, my lightest Toho is 1-1/2 lb, albeit without lens or focusing hood.

Cheer,

R.

Dear Roger:

My Speed Graphic weighs 5 lbs. with lens. And so, as I stated, the difference between it and lighter field cameras, such as you described, is trivial compared with the difference in weight between tripods and the rest of the gear one needs to carry to do LF work in the field.

For instance, I wouldn't use a tripod any lighter than my Bogen (at 8 pounds) for a 4x5 camera, and I've heard of equivalent LF-compatible tripods tip the scales at over 10 pounds in weight. Carbon fiber is lighter, but also much more expensive, which is a consideration for an amateur on a budget.

We could also discuss the weight versus cost benefit analysis of backpacks needed to cart all of one's kit around the boonies. In the final analysis, the difference between a light field camera and Speed Graphic is marginal.

Not to mention the cost penalty, a lighter camera of modern manufacture being obviously much more expensive; typically, the cost increasing with decreased weight. For the paid professional this is trivial, but for the amateur such as myself this is a big issue.

Were I in need of a camera with more movements and longer bellows extension (or the Speed Graphic finally dies - it is over 60 years old, after all), within my budget, I'd perhaps be looking at a starter Shen Hao or similar brand. But I'd still miss the focal plane shutter of the old Speed Graphic.

I'm not arguing that old WWII-era Speed Graphics are "better" than a modern LF field camera. To the contrary, for most experienced LF photographers that would be a poor choice. But for myself, and perhaps others just starting out (like the OP), especially on a budget, they can be a reasonable choice.

Cheers,

Joe

 

[Roger Hicks]

Dear Joe,

No argument about prices, but I've never seen the need for heavy tripods. The trick is NOT using a centre column. My MPP 'woodie' goes up to about chest height; is very 'dead' (vibration absorbing) and strong; and cost me GBP 10 (call it $15) a good few years ago.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Jamie123]

I'm not arguing that old WWII-era Speed Graphics are "better" than a modern LF field camera. To the contrary, for most experienced LF photographers that would be a poor choice. But for myself, and perhaps others just starting out (like the OP), especially on a budget, they can be a reasonable choice.

I don't think anyone would argue that a Speed Graphic is a decent camera if that's the most you can afford. But I think getting the cheapest just because one is starting out is not necessarily the best idea. I think one should look at all the options one can comfortably afford and then make a decision. Getting the cheapest just because it's the first might lead to another purchase soon after.
Besides, every camera has a resale value. You can sell a Chamonix used for almost as much as you paid for it new because there's such a long waiting period (I waited 5 months for mine). Other more expensive cameras generally also hold their value if you buy them used to begin with. A Speed Graphic, on the other hand, with its rangefinder and shutter (and most importantly its age) might be a more 'risky' purchase as you're not likely to resell it for what you paid if it breaks.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I don't think anyone would argue that a Speed Graphic is a decent camera if that's the most you can afford. But I think getting the cheapest just because one is starting out is not necessarily the best idea. I think one should look at all the options one can comfortably afford and then make a decision. Getting the cheapest just because it's the first might lead to another purchase soon after.
Besides, every camera has a resale value. You can sell a Chamonix used for almost as much as you paid for it new because there's such a long waiting period (I waited 5 months for mine). Other more expensive cameras generally also hold their value if you buy them used to begin with. A Speed Graphic, on the other hand, with its rangefinder and shutter (and most importantly its age) might be a more 'risky' purchase as you're not likely to resell it for what you paid if it breaks.

I very heartily agree with this, and would add that another powerful argument is that if you spend too little, you may end up with something which is so inferior to the 'real thing' (defined principally as 'what you really want or even need') that it will put you off.

This probably isn't the case with Speed Graphics, though I have to say that my first 5x4, a Dawes Press with both leaf and FP shutters, did not really encourage me to use 5x4 inch in the way that a (very much more versatile) MPP Micro-Technical did. On the other hand, if I'd tried to start out with fixed lens RFs, I'd probably not be using Leicas today. There is a massive difference between an FLRF (and I've had some good ones, such as a Lynx 14 and a couple of Konicas, SIII and IIIS) and interchangeable-lens cameras, even Zorkiis and Kievs, let alone Leicas, Canons, Niccas, Yashicas...

Cheers,

R.

 

[TareqPhoto]

I don't have much to add, simply i bought Speed Graphic Pacemaker body only, then caught a deal on Crown Graphic with a lens Optar 162mm Wollensack so to use on Speed Graphic as well. But because i had a bug that it is used and no much movements i didn't wait long and bought Shen Hao as a kit from badgergraphic.com which came with aluminum case and holders and Rodenstock APO Sironar-N 150mm f5.6, i used this camera first only for 5 sheets only, working flawlessly, waiting the winter to use it more and the Graphics cameras as well, but i am looking for to get Ebony camera and i am done with 4x5, then later direct to 8x10.

 

[Mablo]

Here in EU you don't see a Graflex press camera on sale very often and prices are quite high. A folding field camera is definitely the preferred LF camera type here too but lots of good monorails are on sale for a fraction of a price. Lenses, film holders, tripods etc. can be used with all LF camera types so getting a cheap monorail to begin with is quite a risk free move I think.

 

[thrice]

Certainly you can easily drop more than a M9's price on a wonderful new Linhof Master Technika, which is wonderful if you can afford it (they are fine, like a Leica). Or you can be a pretentious poser and drop just $4000 to $6000 on an wooden Ebony/Chamonix/Shen-Hao and a few new lenses.... OR you could be smart and get yourself a professional Sinar F and a Crown Graphic (in case you suddenly go backpacking or want to shoot handheld), along with a choice vintage lens or two, a rugged tripod (a Tiltall is a good start), a spot meter, and a load of film and holders... for under a grand.

I have an Ebony. I also have an M9. I don't give a damn (beyond this one response) what anyone thinks of my buying habits, to criticise says more about you than I.

If it helps the OP, I find the Ebony incredibly impressive, high precision, light weight (For what it is) and it isn't a folder (I have the 45s) so it sets up and packs down very quickly. I bought my lenses used and there are some very good deals to be had. The most expensive - Nikkor 75/4.5 - is my most used lens. I then bought a longer lens, a 210mm Caltar-II N and a wide-ish fast lens - Planar 135/3.5 for $195.

A good groundglass and loupe will help if you're going to shoot without a tripod. The ebony stock screen is great but I hear very good things about Maxwell screens. I use the Peak 4x Loupe which is fantastic and light. If I were to do it again I would get a folding groundglass shade and a long loupe, I rarely use the dark cloth.

I second the suggestion of getting the Fuji PA-45 holder, it can be pricey new but used ones are quite cheap (~$100) on ebay. Great to get instant feedback.

Keep in mind that film developing and processing especially for 4x5 is getting rare. There are hardly any places (and none within 2000km of me) that will process 4x5 transparencies. A tank and some chemicals might be a worthwhile investment in the long run. The Jobo CPE2 is quite reasonable (~$300) if you find a good deal. Keep in mind, it's a very different system and has it's own big set of requirements in accessories, so you may find yourself with a very heavy camera bag.

 

[djonesii]

My 4X5 choices .....

My 4X5 choices .....

Like many have said, I got a Speed Graphic with the intent of getting an Aero Ektar. Decided against that.

Ended up getting a 4X5 Polaroid conversion, hand held, range-finder, graflock compatible,

Sold off the speed, all but one of my film holders ( the 6 shot gramatic), and every so often dither about selling off the Alpenhause, but it just gives such special negatives with relative ease!

YMMV

Dave

 

[olleorama]

My first LF camera was a cambo sc, got it for under $150, locally in Europe. It taught me a lot of things. Sold it for a profit and bought an even cheaper B&J press camera. I only do portraits with it anyways.

 

[atlcruiser]

I would not consider a crown or speed as your "final" 45 but it sure is a nice set up for about 75% of the time for me.

You might consider overall expenses relating to developing, tanks etc....I know it was essential for me to be able to shoot and develop on the same day; at times more than once!

My opinion is a less expensive camera, such as a crown, and LOTS of film and chemicals, spot meter etc..... Once I found myself more comfortable with the format and process I got my 810 deardorff. I still use my crown all the time but I am considering a deardorff 45 to match the big guy 🙂

 

[unixrevolution]

I hear a lot of words about the Speed, Crown, Pacemaker graphics, but nobody's mentioned the Super?

I have an Omega 45F, which is the same thing as the Toyo. Great monorail camera. I got tired of lugging it places, though, and decided to get a press camera for handheld, and a field camera.

After exhaustive research, I've found that the fairly scarce but affordable Super Graphic is a perfect compromise. Small lensboards mean I got an adapter board and can now merrily swap lenses back and forth with the Toyo. The Super Graphic has a top-mount RF with interchangeable, easy-to-carry cams that clip to the back of the appropriate lensboards. It takes all 4x5 film holders I'd care to use, same as the Toyo. It also lacks the focal plane shutter, so it's fairly light, though you can't use barrel lenses.

But that's not the real party piece of the Super Graphic. The Super Graphic has 25 degrees of swing, 1.125" of rise, about an inch of shift, and a 15 degree drop bed! For front movements, it's pretty much a pretzel camera. AND it can accept lenses as short as 65mm.

The Super Speed Graphic is the same camera, but with a Rodenstock 135mm lens in 1/1000s leaf shutter.

So, overall, bang for buck, the Super was my choice.

Doesn't make me stop wanting a Tachihara, though. Them's pretty.