Grain is a technique issue?

[Treadwell Sloane]

Hey there people I am new to this forum and new to rangefinders was wondering if anyone could give me any advice?

I have within the last four months bought a Leica M3 with 50mm summicron f2 and 35mm f2.8 summaron. My technique and theatre is generally a vc lightmeter doing street or fun snaps, then getting dev and put on to a cd at the local lab.

The problem i find is that my pictures coming out of my leica m3 with film all seem so grainy. I was wondering if i was doing something wrong or my leica need servicing or something else? I realise this is a wide question...

I have used portra 800, fuji 200, 400, kodak gold. all sorts, but no slide film yet, however with every film i have never really got that clean low grain image which i thought to expect with well exposed film around 200-400 asa. ( I am aware that sticking to a film type is advised when learning but budget is a major issue so i grab whats cheap when i can!)

Is this what to expect with the leica? Is it my bad technique at metering? is it the lab? My negs seem exposed on the sides where there are frame numbers .Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

Hanson(novice!)

By the way i do have pictures from my leica on flikr with my account hansonleatherbyillustration if any kind person would like to view and critique.



ps i have a separate question which i am going to post as a new topic so as to keep things clear...

 

[35photo]

Welcome to the forum. Firstly the camera has nothing to do with grain. Its the type of film, exposure and processing... Portra 800 I would assume is a pretty grainy color film to begin with so if you under of over expose it too much it will increase the grain. Are you scanning these negs yourself or the lab? Some scanners can enhance grain more depending on how your controlling it....so there are a few factors....400-800 speed films are generally kinda grainy some better than others some people like it some don't, I've grown to like it.....100 or less speed film will be less grainy that's for sure....

Marko

 

[jawarden]

It could be the scanning. Perhaps you could try an experiment; pick a sunny day and load some Kodak Ektar 100 film in the camera, and expose it at ISO80. If you get back scans that are grainy it's time to have your film scanned somewhere else.

Welcome to the forum!

🙂

 

[Treadwell Sloane]

Hello! Thankyou chaps for the welcome and the swift reply!

Yeh i do have them scanned at my local labs. I have tried several labs, and although some labs have distinctly better quality control (Max spielman in Beeston butcher your negs and dev them in a nostril trimming parlour it seems!) I have mostly come out with generally fairly grainy image and I have always asked to have my shots scanned on to a cd at high res. I do love the grainy look of film but I did expect to get less grain and more detail when i desire it. with slower film and good light.

I will certainly give Kodak ektar 100 a go, I just have to wait for sun in England....the m9 might be in my price bracket by then and i wouldnt have these worries!

In the near future I am planning to dev and scan myself once i am set up. I am thinking of getting a second hand epson perfection v200(good bad?) I am currently on a major budget which is not so easy when using film but i do love its magical look.

Thanks again chaprs for the feedback and welcome!

 

[Ronald M]

Low speed film is better and still will not touch a good digi file from an APS C sensor at low ISO. A full frame sensor is phenominal.

There are ways to reduce grain in photoshop and noise reduction programs. Right from the camera, digi wins every time. That is the primary reason why digi cams are selling 100 to 1 over digi.

 

[Treadwell Sloane]

I was wondering if my camera shutter accuracy might cause me to under expose and that I should have my shutter speeds checked? Although "35 photo" did say that grain has nothing to do with the camera itself.

Ronald thanks for you point I have not tried a full frame sensor. My digital cameras are canon eos 20d and olympus e-p1. I have however seen shots people have taken with colour 35mm film on flikr that look so much sharper that my shots and was horribly jealous and confused as to why my results are not so great in terms of detail and grain

 

[mfogiel]

I will show you 2 images, that are worth a 1000 words. With chromogenic film you HAVE to expose generously - as a rule of thumb expose at HALF the box speed (Ektar 100 seems to be an exception). Here is a couple of shots on BW 400 CN
This one shot on 35mm exposed at EI 200

and this one shot on 120 film exposed at EI 1600

As you can see, the grain is inversely proportional to overexposure.

 

[Treadwell Sloane]

thanks for the advice. perhaps i should try the overexposed a roll. maybe get a 400asa, and shoot it at 200asa..
I will also try the ektar on a sunny day
I am very unsure of the labs scanning quality for sure.
I would like to get a super duper scanner but will have to resort to a second hand "Epson Perfection Colour Scanner V200/en Photo Edition" which im hoping will be good enough for the time being

 

[Steve Ash]

On a sunny day using a ISO100 film you have to close the aperture to 5.6 at your maximum speed of 1/1000 sec to expose your film correctly. The message is you do not need to wait for a sunny day unless you prefer your nice lenses to be stopped down to f16 which I would not recommend.

Regards
Steve

 

[wooiloon]

Why not pick the one you think is too grainy and send for 8x10 or larger print for glossy, and see any obvious grainy effect compared to scanned version?

 

[Treadwell Sloane]

thanks for the tips! ill give it all a shot!

 

[dave lackey]

Great advice here, but it seems you are already programmed to shoot digital. Don't let the film v. digital argument fool you. One is not "better" than the other IMO, just different. Different processes, different results.

I shoot both for different tasks but prefer shooting film with the M3 and Nikon rangefinders. Anyone can obtain great images with modern digital cameras set on auto, including my grandsons who have shot my digital cameras since they were 2 years old and get great snapshots. I have even written a book on Photogoraphy by Children and it is amazing what very young people can do with a digital camera. But, then, they cannot even begin to use the M3 with B&W film to create the kind of images that most on this forum shoot routinely.

It appears that you are ready to dismiss film without even learning it and that is a pity. Do yourself a favor that you will appreciate for a lifetime and learn to use the M3 in the way it was intended. You will never regret being accomplished with both the M3 and the M9...And please dismiss that notion that persists about digital being "better". They are different, for sure, and to use them for what makes you happy is all that matters.

 

[Treadwell Sloane]

Hi dave thanks for the advice.

I assure you im not ready to give up on film at all, im just trying to understand the parameters of film and what to expect when shooting under optimum lighting and equipment conditions. I am also probably a touch paranoid about buying a "user" which i have had to take back to the shop with a sticky shutter and has now got 135 mm frame-lines appearing when using 50mm and 35 mm lenses...

I am very keen to understand how to get the best out my leica because of my love and respect for photography, the craftsmanship of the m3 and desire to bring creativity into the everyday. Not not mention its blinding unparalleled beauty...

 

[dave lackey]

Hi dave thanks for the advice.

I assure you im not ready to give up on film at all, im just trying to understand the parameters of film and what to expect when shooting under optimum lighting and equipment conditions. I am also probably a touch paranoid about buying a "user" which i have had to take back to the shop with a sticky shutter and has now got 135 mm frame-lines appearing when using 50mm and 35 mm lenses...

I am very keen to understand how to get the best out my leica because of my love and respect for photography, the craftsmanship of the m3 and desire to bring creativity into the everyday. Not not mention its blinding unparalleled beauty...

Cool...😎 BTW, who have you sent the camera to for repair? Seems they should fix it for free this time. If not, I am sure you will get some good recommendations here on RFF.

 

[mwooten]

...

The problem i find is that my pictures coming out of my leica m3 with film all seem so grainy. I was wondering if i was doing something wrong or my leica need servicing or something else? I realise this is a wide question...

May I suggest, if you have not done so, that you find a local photo shop that both sells and processes slide film. Try a roll in your M3 just to make sure its shutter is operating properly. Take several shots of the same scene at different lens apertures with the corresponding correct shutter speed. If the meter calls for f2 @ 1000 then shoot one frame at that speed. Then, close the lens up a stop and slow the shutter speed so it stays open twice as long. Do this several more times. When you are through with the roll of film take it back to the shop and have them develop the roll but to sleeve the film -- not too cut it. When you get it back, see what you see. Don't ask for scans.

--michael

 

[Treadwell Sloane]

Hi. I live in the Uk and bought it from Aperture photographic in London, and I do have a 1 year guarantee with this since three months ago. I am planning to have these things resolved under the guarantee.

Also The 35 mm summaron with goggles which i bought with the kit is concerning me with its vertical alignment issues, recently noticed fracture in the rectangular prism, the misshapen other case of the rectangular goggle(like this from purchase) and the slightly loose locking action of the lens onto the body. The lens' bayonet locking slot looks to have received some force to have raised the edges of the slot and give it some play. This lens can be rocked back and forth in its locking position. I believe the the lens must have been dropped whilst attached to the body of its camera, landing on the rectangular goggle and stressing the bayonet slot.

This lack on snug fit seems to contribute to the 135mm frameline appearance, and I was wondering if the slightly loose fit could contribute to exposure issues due to light leak. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It would be greatly appreciated! I am also wondering if all these issues are indeed fixable!

regards

Hanson