KM-25
Well-known
And..
To preface, might I remind you one of the things the OP wrote: "Like many of my peers, I have struggled for many years to "make it" as a professional photographer."
So to put things in proper context, it has always been a struggle for some, but not for others and this will not change. When Bill said running a business is a challenge, the word challenge is not always a bad thing right? I mean, making a great meal, next climbing move or vocal out of your normal range can be a challenge, right?
Personally, I don't disagree in what jsrockit is implying that it *might* be a good idea to try the shoe on before you walk. But I think that what the common denominator is here in terms of replies is that the risk is now far higher than it ever has been in what free will get you and I think that most truly underestimate how fast that risk is growing.
I love my life as a photographer and I am confident I can continue to enjoy the level of success I have achieved in going forward based on what I have learned and what the industry is doing. But like doing a job for free, spending time on here in trying to share this experience is in a manner of speaking, working for free. No one is paying me for my advice so why should I bother?
At the end of the day.....I don't think most even want pros here, it might be too hard to hear that not all of us are starving, have a blast at our jobs and will likely do so for some time to come. I think I can understand that now and it might be best for me to leave the next iteration of this discussion for the next guy to reply to.
I can agree with this completely.
I think many of us like the Pros here... especially when they post great articles (from other sites) that spur great threads (PKR).
Sejanus.Aelianus
Veteran
You're quite right. I stopped earning my daily bread (and the occasional cream cake) from photography when it no longer seemed like fun.
It's more, I think, that some people come across as "you're only an amateur, so my opinion as a pro is more important than your opinion." It's also the case that different people have very different goals and judging their views against your own can be quite challenging.
What was that saying? Something about not judging another person until you have walked a mile in their shoes, I believe.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
I'd rather go back to Iraq than do another wedding. (Haven't done one since 2005.)
Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to even get back into photography in the Navy these days.
I should have been a plumber...
Phil Forrest
Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to even get back into photography in the Navy these days.
I should have been a plumber...
Phil Forrest
Bill Clark
Veteran
When I was in the Navy and go to a bar, we frequented Subic to get repairs, I'd tell folks, "I'm a UDT!"
They thought wow! Thinking I'm Seal material.
But then I would say, "for me, that means urinal drain technican!" Ha! Actually I worked with damage control, that got combined as Hull Technican rate. Used my skills when doing shore bombardment near the DMZ in Viet Nam.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
Bill, good to see another Navy man.
Check out this thread:
http://rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130641
We need more sea stories!
Phil Forrest
Check out this thread:
http://rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130641
We need more sea stories!
Phil Forrest
Timmyjoe
Veteran
Don't work for free is some of the toughest advice newbie photographers can hear, as we all want to work, and get our work out there. I really struggled with this the first few years starting out. I feared that I would never get paid if people couldn't see my work, and working for someone for free would at least get my work out there.
The first few years were a real struggle. I found a "cause" that I strongly supported, and they needed photo work done. I made a deal with them to do some of the work for them, not for free, but for a reduced rate, as I firmly believed in what they were doing. That got my work out there and lead to other, higher paying opportunities. And now that "cause" pays me more per job than when I first started with them. And my other opportunities are paying the "going rate" for the work, so it's all good.
I still get requests for "just a couple of images" from different "causes" and I have to keep saying "No." They whine and moan, and say, "But you helped "X cause" out, why don't you do that for me." When I tell them what "X cause" pays me, they usually move on to the next "aspiring photographer" that they can get to do the work for free.
It's a tough market, and you only hurt yourself in that market by doing work for free.
Best,
-Tim
The first few years were a real struggle. I found a "cause" that I strongly supported, and they needed photo work done. I made a deal with them to do some of the work for them, not for free, but for a reduced rate, as I firmly believed in what they were doing. That got my work out there and lead to other, higher paying opportunities. And now that "cause" pays me more per job than when I first started with them. And my other opportunities are paying the "going rate" for the work, so it's all good.
I still get requests for "just a couple of images" from different "causes" and I have to keep saying "No." They whine and moan, and say, "But you helped "X cause" out, why don't you do that for me." When I tell them what "X cause" pays me, they usually move on to the next "aspiring photographer" that they can get to do the work for free.
It's a tough market, and you only hurt yourself in that market by doing work for free.
Best,
-Tim
KM-25
Well-known
In 1985 I joined the Navy at age 18 specifically to photograph life aboard an aircraft carrier. So in order to ensure that would happen, I signed up as an AD or "Jet Mech" as I had a very good knowledge of aircraft in hanging around our regional airport as a kid. I became a great mech, even gaining a medal of commendation for insisting pilots choose another aircraft for an "Alert 5" after discovering what I felt was a life threatening crack in an airframe while performing a daily inspection.
So I shot a ton of work on Kodachrome on the flight deck, many images ended up in books, ads and posters netting me tens of thousands in income. When in my fourth and final year of active duty I was offered the choice of moving over to become a photographer ( PH ) as by then my work was very well known throughout the ship.
I politely declined as it would have taken me away from my favorite subject matter and instead had me shooting head shots, grip and grins and ribbon cutings, often working below decks.
I got out after my enlistment was up and started my career in photography and have been going ever since. Ironically enough, I also learned the trade of Wedding Photography while in but as I did more of it, I thought it to be a "Last Resort" genre and did only a handful once I got out, opting for more rewarding and higher paying work...
koven
Well-known
You gotta know your value and the value of the work you do.
If GQ asked me to shoot something for them I would do it for free just for the prestige factor. It would also up my value in the eyes of potential clients. As for weddings I would pay to not have to shoot one.
If GQ asked me to shoot something for them I would do it for free just for the prestige factor. It would also up my value in the eyes of potential clients. As for weddings I would pay to not have to shoot one.
KM-25
Well-known
Why? A big part of that prestige is that you got chosen for the *job*, not the name dropping hand out...
This is also part of the problem of perception, lots of newbies or amateurs aspire to this prestige as if it is still 1990 when a credit line meant a lot more. It does not in 2013, it merely means you put a few more bucks in the publisher's pocket for a prestige that no longer exists.
When I shot a gig for GQ in 2003, I did not do it for the "Prestige" I did it because that was the assignment my editorial agent got me at the time. Hell, I don't even know where that tear sheet is but I do know it paid my rent that month...
Timmyjoe
Veteran
Couldn't disagree more. There is a very prestigious monthly in Chicago that asked a photographer that I know, and myself, to do a piece, for free. I said, "Thank you, but my fee for this would be $XXXX." My friend thought I was crazy and enthusiastically agreed to do the shoot for free. It took her the better part of a week and her pictures appeared in the issue. That was over two years ago, she has gotten NOTHING as a result of those pictures, except for other weeklies asking her to shoot things for them for free.
Once you've developed a reputation of working for free, it is VERY HARD to change that perception.
Best,
-Tim
Bill Clark
Veteran
Agree.
Charity begins at home.
noisycheese
Normal(ish) Human
That is a good policy.
I recall a particularly obnoxious example of the opposite of this. I am a member of a large photography club which has many talented and experienced members. The education director of a YMCA in a small town that is a 30 minute drive from our town contacted our club, asking for an experienced member to teach a photography class - for free, of course. Since I live about halfway between the two towns, I gave some thought to teaching this class. It would be six weeks long, two nights a week, then one week off before the next class started up.
A week later, I got "the rest of the story" (to quote Paul Harvey) from a friend who is also a photography club member. It turns out that the YMCA does indeed pay all its other class instructors - after all, people must pay to take classes there - but for some reason, the woman in charge at the YMCA had decided that photography instructors should teach for free. Apparently in her mind, teaching at the YMCA in this pissant little town should be reward enough.
My friend had considered teaching the class for free, if the YMCA would reimburse him for the cost of gasoline required to get there and back. The answer to even this modest request was a "no." His reply was, "I wish you good fortune in your search for a photography instructor."
I was very relieved that too I had not agreed to teach at this YMCA for free. Given the deception and manipulation involved, I would have un-volunteered my services in a heartbeat.
I still am at a loss regarding how photographers have come to be viewed as fair game for this kind of unethical nonsense. The total absence of ethics that a plurality (if not a majority) of people in our culture exhibit just floors me - but it shouldn't.
That is a sad commentary on the current culture.
mugent
Well-known
Hmmm, doing a wedding for free (as a beginner) just to gain some experience might not be such a horrible way to approach the matter if you are unsure of if you are ready. At least if you f up, they can't get upset.
Agreed. If you need some portfolio shots, it's beneficial the photographer too. You need to ask yourself if you'll get something out of it, be it portfolio shots, a learning experience, whatever.
I'm a programmer, and I've done stuff for free, for charitable reasons, there is nothing wrong with working for free, as there are compensations other than cash, even if it's just knowing you've done something good.
I think in this case, if you were an established, skilled, wedding photographer, then I doubt you'd get much out of doing the job for free. If you are just starting out, I'd see it as a low-pressure opportunity to get experience and portfolio shots.
mugent
Well-known
Your friend at least had a chance at getting paid work from it, it may not have worked out, but she made the right decision, it was worth a go, not every business decision pays off.
There are many professions where working for free is a precursor to paid work. Standup comedians are generally not paid to perform when starting out, not even expenses, some venues (mostly US) operate a system of 'pay-to-play', where the comedians have to pay the venue to perform! So it could be worse...
lynnb
Veteran
Frida
Established
My wife and I ran a wedding photography business for some time. This is our last year. We didn't shoot any of them for free, not even at the beginning, and I wouldn't advise anyone else to either. We're leaving the business to make more time for our life together.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
You haven't read a single thing the professionals in this thread have written, have you? The woman who worked for free did NOT make the right decision, it was not worth a go, because working for free NEVER, ever, EVER results in paid work in the future.
Ever.
All it does is establish that you're a big enough chump to work for free for people who are making money. Don't be an idiot; the world has too goddamned many of them already, it doesn't need another. I've been a professional photographer and graphic artist for a long time now. So have the other pros who have said the same thing I have. We know what we're talking about.
mugent
Well-known
If people want to work for nothing, for the small chance in may improve their prospects, good luck to them, it may not work you, it may not work for others, but to say working for free never results in paid work is patently not true. I know many actors who have worked for free, got a good showreel from it, and have got paid work as a result.
Some industries, photography being one of them, are afflicted by the supply being more that the demand, so some people will try anything to get a headstart, it'll work for some, not others.
I'm not suggesting the photographers in this thread are wrong, I'm suggesting that a few opinions do not make a fact, capital letters don't change that.
jonasv
has no mustache
KM-25 said:
KM, just wanted to add that I enjoyed reading your nuanced opinions. I think a lot of us enjoy the comments by the pros on RFF.
Especially when they are as thoughtful and carefully worded as yours, without having to resort to futile name-calling.