mugent
Well-known
It is indeed beating a dead horse, but I guess I differ on your last point, if you work for free, then your work is worth nothing.
If I give someone a car, it's still worth something, it's a silly point, but it's true for work too. There are valid reasons to work for free... Altruism, goodwill, a favour, experience, I could go on.
If your work is in high demand,and you are making a handsome living through photography, then sure, charge for everything, because you can. I'm sure a couple of photographers on this forum fall into this bracket, and good for them, but not everyone is in this position. I'm sure Rankin can charge whatever he wants,whenever he wants.
Serendipitously, about 2 minutes before I posted this message, I sold a copy of some software I've written, not an unusual occurence, but the purchaser stated he had purchased the upgrade because I'd done a little *free* website support for him earlier today (a tiny, 10 minute job, but of course, I should have charged him...). So for this free work, I've got a nice feeling for helping someone out, money (more than 10 minutes labour too), and a customer spreading good word-of-mouth about my company.
Maybe the above situation is an unusual one in photographic circles, but for me , it's not out of the ordinary, I've had whole site licence sales from giving away a single user licence for free.
Obviously, it's all grey areas, don't get exploited, but don't be too much of a hardass either.
haempe
Well-known
Unfortunately, the reverse does not apply.
I (personally) work until my needs are covered (roof, bread and beer) as payed product-photographer - usually 2 weeks a month.
The rest of the month I'm free to do what I want, working for free or material cost for guys I like or in projects worth to support.
I'm sure in afterlife it will be requited...
But one thing is correct, working for free isn't a good door-opener if one is ambitious to make a career as well paid pro.
mfunnell
Shaken, so blurred
I apply a simple heuristic to requests to work for free, whether with computers (my day job) or taking photos - or anything else, for that matter. I'll only say "yes" if the person asking is someone I'm close enough to that it would be reasonable for them to ask my help moving house, and that I'd likely help out if available to do so.
My best friend? Of course!
My cousin? Depends on the cousin...
My Dad? No worries! My brother? For sure.
The bloke up the road? Do I know you?
A real-world example: the owner of one of my local bookshops asked me to take some photos for a promotional campaign he was running on his business web site. I did it, for free. I also helped out with his computer systems. Why? He and his wife had become my personal friends - we'd been to each others houses for dinners, been out to restaurants together, introduced our respective circles of friends etc. (Hell, after they sold out of the bookshop I even helped them move house.)
If the owner of my other local bookshop had asked (which he wouldn't) I would have quoted rates, whether for IT work or taking photos. We only know each other to nod at, and occasionally chat about books. A very different relationship.
It seems a reasonable rule to me. It doesn't preclude me from working for nothing, but it does restrict the circumstances...
...Mike
My best friend? Of course!
My cousin? Depends on the cousin...
My Dad? No worries! My brother? For sure.
The bloke up the road? Do I know you?
A real-world example: the owner of one of my local bookshops asked me to take some photos for a promotional campaign he was running on his business web site. I did it, for free. I also helped out with his computer systems. Why? He and his wife had become my personal friends - we'd been to each others houses for dinners, been out to restaurants together, introduced our respective circles of friends etc. (Hell, after they sold out of the bookshop I even helped them move house.)
If the owner of my other local bookshop had asked (which he wouldn't) I would have quoted rates, whether for IT work or taking photos. We only know each other to nod at, and occasionally chat about books. A very different relationship.
It seems a reasonable rule to me. It doesn't preclude me from working for nothing, but it does restrict the circumstances...
...Mike
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Its not futile, its the truth. I've had art directors and business owners tell me how stupid that photographers are who give work for free. They have ZERO respect for you if you do that. None. They use far harsher language than I did. In most cities, the professional photo/advertising/graphic design world is small, everyone knows each other. You establish yourself as a fool/chump/idiot/dumbass in the eyes of one person who uses photographs, and word spreads like wildfire. They're happy to screw you, but don't expect any cuddles afterward.
haempe
Well-known
Chris,
it may be one truth, but there are also others around....
I once helped a friend (he worked for a museum) for free to take some photos for a book. Later I found myself (unintentionally) involved in a very well payed 1,5 years project in the same museum.
S#!7 happens...
Sparrow
Veteran
... I've done stuff for a museum for free too, and given work placements and help to local colleges ... and I'm none of those things claimed above
thegman
Veteran
I wrote a couple of article for free once, just short little things I'd have written for my blog anyway. Over a year later, the site that published my articles offered to pay me for some more, longer articles, which I happily accepted.
As Haempe says, there is more than one type of truth around. For some people, giving away their services just leads to them working, but not being paid. For some people though, it does lead to paying work and you've got a couple of valuable contacts too. It did for me anyway.
As Haempe says, there is more than one type of truth around. For some people, giving away their services just leads to them working, but not being paid. For some people though, it does lead to paying work and you've got a couple of valuable contacts too. It did for me anyway.
koven
Well-known
Great points, even though we are at different stages of life/career I love the perspective of experienced vets. I have legit reasons for wanting to get into GQ but I cant spill those here.
I disagree with one point you made though, I would say in the past a name line didn't mean anything. Nobody really cared about photography or photographers outside of people directly in the industry. But these days are different because of social media. Its way easer to make a name for yourself and gain a following of people who will support the things you do (books, shows, ect) .
I'm still learning the industry but one thing I do know is that things aren't the same as it was before. From what I know so far editorial doesn't really pay that much unless your a big name and its all about the prestige factor. Not something you should depend on to get your rent paid.
haempe
Well-known
There may be also business-cultural differences depending to the region of the world, which should included in the considerations on this topic...
koven
Well-known
Some experienced journalists might be pissed off about you giving out free work. It devalues everything they did in the past and will make it harder for them to eat in the future.
Same with photography, I see where the experienced pros are coming from. Their attitudes are coming from a place self preservation, they could give two ****s about people breaking in the industry anyway they can....right....right? I don't know, I'm just rambling.
Or are they trying to keep a system in place where everyone gets work and gets paid as long as you follow the rules and do things through the proper channels?
Its really hard to tell where these pros are coming from because of the frustration in their posts. I feel like if they expressed themselves better more people would emphasize.
I'm one of those people who hopped on the photography bandwagon. I've set out of path on how I make money and where I want my career to go and I think that if a free shoot will further that path so be it. I feel like the days where you look at this as a regular job are over. There is way more talent and passion out there than there was before. Its funny that this thread was made....After I made that GQ post I got a potential opportunity with a very big publication.....I would say in top 10 in the USA. Free but they will cover all my expenses. Not sure exactly what it involves yet but ill take it if it doesn't conflict with anything.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Chris,
it may be one truth, but there are also others around....
I once helped a friend (he worked for a museum) for free to take some photos for a book. Later I found myself (unintentionally) involved in a very well payed 1,5 years project in the same museum.
S#!7 happens...
That was because you had a friend there. Someone, I presume, that you knew and were friends with before you did any of the work.
The problem is that a lot of people in businesses, publications, and nonprofits (like museums) will make promises and such to photographers who the people at the organization have no connection to. Those promises never come true, but there are so many people desperate to get published or whatever that there are a steady stream of victims for this con-game. Those of us who tell people not to play the game are not being dickheads, even if it sounds like it. We're telling you how things work in this industry so you don't get cheated.
thegman
Veteran
I totally get what you're saying, and as a software developer, it seems that the open source developers can do the same to commercial software developers.
However, it depends what side of the fence you're looking from. Often people see open source developers as the goodies, and companies like Microsoft as the baddies. But of course, commercial software development provides millions of well paid, skilled jobs. So should open source developers not develop stuff for free because it pisses people off?
Is it possible for me to devalue someone else's work? And if it is, and I don't do work for free because of that, isn't that price fixing and somewhat protectionist?
Let's say I shoot a wedding for free, a pro photographer could complain because I'm putting him out of work. But that seems a sort of artificial inflation of an idea that his services are so incredibly valuable that he should always be paid for them, when in fact an enthusiastic amateur may well be able to do a *good enough* job for free.
On one hand I completely agree with you, and would love to see more people paid to do the jobs they enjoy. On the other I don't like the idea that we're propping up the idea that professionals should be paid simply because they are professionals.
haempe
Well-known
I think, it's like educating kids, some mistakes has everybody to make himself to learn from.
Even a bad experience makes one more experienced...
Personally, I made a lot mistakes in my life, which I do not want to miss...
btgc
Veteran
Probably doing something for free works when:
- you have a friend or someone trusted who will not flip you so admission actually can make return later
- do it, but not whole job. Partial job, or fragment of larger job to show what you can do, but not to cover all their needs. Even then someone fool enough can decide to grab this bits and run to next person who will donate time and labour for free. In fact reasonable people are able to make decision whether to hire you based on your previous work, but newbies are so excited that work for free to get into business.
As someone told me - never work for free as free isn't appreciated nor thought as valuable. Charge something or trade so people don't have a feeling they got something invaluable. Psychology of people is they value more hard to get things (look at ebay) and will pay through the nose if they need it. Give it for free and next day they will throw it away.
- you have a friend or someone trusted who will not flip you so admission actually can make return later
- do it, but not whole job. Partial job, or fragment of larger job to show what you can do, but not to cover all their needs. Even then someone fool enough can decide to grab this bits and run to next person who will donate time and labour for free. In fact reasonable people are able to make decision whether to hire you based on your previous work, but newbies are so excited that work for free to get into business.
As someone told me - never work for free as free isn't appreciated nor thought as valuable. Charge something or trade so people don't have a feeling they got something invaluable. Psychology of people is they value more hard to get things (look at ebay) and will pay through the nose if they need it. Give it for free and next day they will throw it away.
Sparrow
Veteran
... maybe museums in the US are different to the UK, when I was a student I spent many hours in them for free, I don't see myself as a mug for giving something back
koven
Well-known
I agree with you man! I was kind of being sarcastic at the beginning of my post. And in my opinion wedding photography is a hustle just like cutting hair. The few great wedding photographers are very expensive and rightfully so but the average is just as good as the advanced amateur. If you can cut hair as good as the barber and have a willingness to do so, nobody has the right stop you.
thegman
Veteran
Sorry, must have had a sense of humour bypass without realising it!
x-ray
Veteran
You nailed it exactly. I started shooting for pay while in high school and went full time pro in college in 1968. I started as a PJ shooting for my university paper and my work got the attention of the chief photographer of a major paper. With his guidance I shot for AP, UPI, Esquire and later Life. By the time I was 20 I had full page images running in major magazines. I didn't do any of this for free. Matter of fact in todays dollars I was making almost $80,000 a year when I was 21.
In 1972 I decided to change directions. Id made great money and saved a lot. I'd been shot at and a guy attempted to seperate my body from my head with a fire ax so I thought I would see what commercial photography was like.
I was very fortunate to have the opportunity to apprentice under a PPofA master photographer. I worked for a year and a half 5-1/2 days a week. The first year I worked for FREE and the next six months I was paid. I could never have learned as much in school as I did from Joe. Joe taught me better lab skills and turned me into an exceptional printer. He taught me business and how to work with art directors, designers and account execs. He taught me how to use layouts and refined my technique.
The experience was invaluable and two years after leaving his studio, Joe as the state president of the PPofA presented me with best of show commercial at the state convention. I was judge against the best in the state and these were great photographers.
Because of my mentor, Joe Jernigan, I received an education that could never have been gotten in school. I had what it took but he brought it out and in 1985 I received my PPofA masters.
The short version of the long story, things are different now. There's the popular thought that all you need is a camera and computer and you're pro material. The more money you put into your gear the better you are. Yes I've had wannabe photographers suggest that and see it on the forums including this one. All you need is expensive gear and you can bypass years of learning.
I still get this once in a while, "you can shoot this for the experience." that's bold !!! Unfortunately I see it all the time and you're right, free jobs generally don't lead to paid jobs because if you do a freebie then when you want pay work the customer will move to another person willing to do it for free.
The freebie photogs are creating the monster that will keep them from ever making money in the industry. There are so many wannabe photogs willing to do this that it's pretty much an endless supply. Cameras are too cheap, require no technical knowledge or skill and there are millions or aspiring young and old trying to get into the business and make a few bucks.
I experienced the golden age of photography when a young kid with a camera could get an ad agency staff job paying $45,000 a year (todays dollars) and a good photographer could make well into the upper six figures. Forget it today,too many people trying and the entry point in skill, knowledge and talent is at an all time low.
The world has moved on, the $40,000 -100,000 dollar jobs are gone with a few exceptions. Sorry to say to you young startup guys, your chances of making more than pocket changes is almost 0. You're probably more likely to get hit by lightning while buying a winning lottery ticket.
The industry is over crowded with low skill level folks, clients wanting cheap over excellence and clients that think they can do it themselves. Many of them not knowing excellent work if the fell over it.
Just my 2 cents, it's never coming back.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
mugent
Well-known
Chris,
it may be one truth, but there are also others around....
I once helped a friend (he worked for a museum) for free to take some photos for a book. Later I found myself (unintentionally) involved in a very well payed 1,5 years project in the same museum.
S#!7 happens...
YES, this!
I don't expect my experiences to apply to everyone, one experience (or even 100) does not equal a black & white truth.