______
Well-known
Yes, this is just some of the nonsense posted by the Leica adherents, and explains why it may well be Leica users and not Leica itself which alienates other photographers. If almost makes you embarrassed to carry a Leica, knowing that people are snickering and rolling their eyes at you behind your back. Of course, everyone knows that Leicas are just tools, which is why the "Show Us Your M" is among the most popular threads on the forum.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
There are brand snobs just like there are brand haters with just about everything. Just have a look around any brand specific forum. The haters are just as bad as the snobs. Just read back through this thread is you need any proof. They are just tools.
Go to Nikon forums and Canon forums and you'll never see any of that type of stuff right LoL....
I guess the bigger question is why do threads like that bother you so? Why should you care? There are also threads of show me you American Rangefinder. I guess that bothers you to huh?
Go to Nikon forums and Canon forums and you'll never see any of that type of stuff right LoL....
I guess the bigger question is why do threads like that bother you so? Why should you care? There are also threads of show me you American Rangefinder. I guess that bothers you to huh?
brennanphotoguy
Well-known
That's all well and good but that's why I said "95% of working professionals," and not "all working professionals." There's always small groups of niche photographers who make livings off using smaller amounts of equipment and there's nothing wrong with that at all. I don't make a living off my photography and I don't own a digital camera at all. I still do some small shoots and make some money and can afford to be picky and choosey with what I want to do when it comes to selecting jobs. Again, you're in an extremely small minority. Many, many professionals need more flexibility with lenses, AF, an actual professional support system, increased reliability, cost effectiveness, tethering capability, GPS tagging, etc. I'm sure there's a ton of professionals out there who would love to work with just two lenses and two bodies and shoot only one type of way with one subject matter all the time and make a living and not need to carry a ton of gear but the amount of people doing that is extremely limited.
I don't feel alienated by Leica because I can't afford to own a 5D4 (not that I want to at all, I hate SLRs) and a slew of L lenses either. Do I think their prices are too high based on what you get in return? Yes. I definitely think their pricing is a bit absurd on the SL and M line of cameras but I don't feel alienated. The stuff costs what it costs and they are a luxury/niche brand and if their prices were lower I still don't think they'd make enough profit to continue on like they are.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
My Canons were far less reliable than my Leica's have been. I had a major shutter failure when shooting for NATO in 2012 and all of my Canons had been in the shop far more with far more problems than I've had with my Leica's. I also had a 1DsMkIII for CPS arrive DOA. They all will fail at some point. Knock on wood maybe I have just been lucky with my Leica's and unlucky with my Canons.
Here's where you are wrong. My subjects vary as much as most pros and a lot of my work is in very challenging environments. I find manual focus and really useful DoF scales to be faster and more reliable than auto focus. I find my understanding of light, how meters work and experience for me to be far better than any automation. In fact all of that stuff, for some like me, can get in the way.
But there are some assumptions that are being made here. First it was implied that i couldn't be a full time pro and shoot with Leica M. Now it's being implied that a photographer can't shoot different subjects in different situations with Leica M.
One thing my experience has taught me over the years is that most don't need as much stuff as we think we do to get great photographs. We just need to find the equipment that matches the way we see and work whatever that is.
You are right that the majority of full time pros don't shoot with Leica M just like a couple of decades ago the majority didn't shoot with Hasselblads or large format (Deardorffs) but then as now some travel a different path. And as long as one gets the the results that one needs for the tools they are using then it is all good. Nice to have some REAL choices. Thank you Leica.
I find to be even more true today.
"The fact is that relatively few photographers ever master their medium. Instead they allow the medium to master them and go on an endless squirrel cage chase from new lens to new paper to new developer to new gadget, never staying with one piece of equipment long enough to learn its full capacities, becoming lost in a maze of technical information that is of little or no use since they don't know what to do with it." - Edward Weston
Here's where you are wrong. My subjects vary as much as most pros and a lot of my work is in very challenging environments. I find manual focus and really useful DoF scales to be faster and more reliable than auto focus. I find my understanding of light, how meters work and experience for me to be far better than any automation. In fact all of that stuff, for some like me, can get in the way.
But there are some assumptions that are being made here. First it was implied that i couldn't be a full time pro and shoot with Leica M. Now it's being implied that a photographer can't shoot different subjects in different situations with Leica M.
One thing my experience has taught me over the years is that most don't need as much stuff as we think we do to get great photographs. We just need to find the equipment that matches the way we see and work whatever that is.
You are right that the majority of full time pros don't shoot with Leica M just like a couple of decades ago the majority didn't shoot with Hasselblads or large format (Deardorffs) but then as now some travel a different path. And as long as one gets the the results that one needs for the tools they are using then it is all good. Nice to have some REAL choices. Thank you Leica.
I find to be even more true today.
"The fact is that relatively few photographers ever master their medium. Instead they allow the medium to master them and go on an endless squirrel cage chase from new lens to new paper to new developer to new gadget, never staying with one piece of equipment long enough to learn its full capacities, becoming lost in a maze of technical information that is of little or no use since they don't know what to do with it." - Edward Weston
brennanphotoguy
Well-known
I literally never implied that you couldn't be a full time pro and shoot with the M cameras. You have been lucky with your Ms because I've had many people have more issues with their Leica equipment than anything else. Have fun while you're camera sits at Leica for months on end without any correspondence. And no, the M system is not as flexible. If you shoot for a paper or magazine you can't go from shooting an M at a dinner party for whoever or a press event and then go shoot a college athletic event. The M system is great for the former, terrible for the latter. You have to pick and choose you're gear based on what you shoot. It's more of a headache to shoehorn something you want to work with into a job it's not suited for than to just shoot with something that makes the job easy on yourself and you can move on to the next thing.
______
Well-known
It doesn't bother me. To the contrary, I think it is hilarious. It just underscores the trophy wife/trophy camera mentality which is so prevalent. I don't count you among that crowd. (I am praying here that you don't have a Barnack the Cat shutter release.) You actually use your Leicas and don't consider yourself a member of the "long tradition of gentlemen-photographers, who don’t depend on their art for a living." Gentlemen-photographers. ROTFLMAO. For all of their faults, that's certainly not a phrase I've ever encountered from someone on a Canikon forum.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
I must have misread you. Sorry. But the equipment should fit the way a photographer sees and works and in there will be all the flexibility needed. Maybe M's don't work well for you and that's all fine but they do for some. A lot of my work is shooting magazines, billboards, annual reports, formal and environmental portraits and many other types of advertising. I don't shoot enough sports to worry about that kind of thing.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
Well, I am certainly no gentleman (LoL) and I make a living from my commercial work. I have had some success with my personal work but not near enough to give my family the standard of living that they deserve.
You do see the guy with the Nicanon 1DXIIIsf whatever posting his photos of his gear and he never posts a real photograph. He is usually the guy with that heavy 42FPS beast and a 6 lb lens wearing it like an accessory. But there is the same type of haters and snobs on those forums as anywhere. It just might be in a slightly different form.
But if someone has the $$$ to buy whatever they want I say rock on and have fun with it or make your living with it or wear it like an accessory but it doesn't bother me any which way. It ain't hurt'n nobody and who am I to judge?
I will take exception to the fact that Leica's are not tools for working photographers and are just bling like some may suggest. And that anyone with a Leica is a snob or only has them for the name. There is going to be some of that with any brand that is expensive.
So I say don't even think twice about it. If it doesn't work for you, then don't buy. I'm sure there are plenty of options out there that will so go make a photograph or two with something that does work.
To quote Ernst Hass (I may be paraphrasing ha ha).
"The camera doesn't make a bit of difference. All of them can record what you are seeing. But, you have to SEE." - Ernst Haas
Emile de Leon
Well-known
Jeeze..you guys may have just convinced me to buy a Leica digital to go with all my Leica glass..
I have definitely not wanted to go the M digital route..for many of the reasons stated here..but that said...is there a better simplistic manual cam out there on the market that does what Leica does..nope..
I'm pretty comfy with my Sony A7 now..and focus is dead on at all times manually..but there is something about an M..
I looked thru my M6 viewfinder the other day..for the 1st time in a really long while..and..well...sometimes you need a change..
When the M10 comes out..it may well be that one..but probably a M 240 if the price drops..
If it only had a tilty screen...if only...
In the end..its just a cam..a tool if you will...luxury or not..and it either works for you..or it doesn't..
Probably wont make your photos any better..no matter how much you spend..why..because well..its still you at the wheel..
But that soft snick when you click the shutter..is kinda like music..
Its just there ready to go..at a moments notice..
I have definitely not wanted to go the M digital route..for many of the reasons stated here..but that said...is there a better simplistic manual cam out there on the market that does what Leica does..nope..
I'm pretty comfy with my Sony A7 now..and focus is dead on at all times manually..but there is something about an M..
I looked thru my M6 viewfinder the other day..for the 1st time in a really long while..and..well...sometimes you need a change..
When the M10 comes out..it may well be that one..but probably a M 240 if the price drops..
If it only had a tilty screen...if only...
In the end..its just a cam..a tool if you will...luxury or not..and it either works for you..or it doesn't..
Probably wont make your photos any better..no matter how much you spend..why..because well..its still you at the wheel..
But that soft snick when you click the shutter..is kinda like music..
Its just there ready to go..at a moments notice..
airfrogusmc
Veteran
I would suggest looking at an M 262.
brennanphotoguy
Well-known
The 262 is really nice. That's my favorite all round M they've ever released. If I had the means to buy an M, that would be the one. I demo'd one for about a month and loved it. I've used all the other digital Ms as well.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
My fav is the MM. M 262 a close second. The MM is such a special camera. It is truly the only B&W digital I have warmed up to.
nikonhswebmaster
reluctant moderator
I am still following? No not really. Let's just say it is less confusing than the concept of building cars out of plastic bricks (LEGO), but about the same as someone explaining to me that Zeiss bumps, and broken shutter tapes, are a feature.
I just watch these threads for flaming, they are of no personal relevance or interest to moi. I pretty much use cameras to make images, which I used to attempt to sell at exorbitant prices.
______
Well-known
Like the sensor glass on the M8 and M9. I think I remember someone saying in defense of Leica something to the effect of "yeah, but it's the type of problem that could only occur on a Leica". Even the defects are exclusive. Trophy defects? You just gotta love these guys. The gift that keeps on giving.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
I'll give ya this, no problem with my sensor on my MM or my M-E. My MM went back for a check and they cleaned, checked and adjusted no charge and Leica paid for shipping both ways and there was no issue.
______
Well-known
Being a latecomer to the digital Leica party, you dodged a couple of bullets (M8/M9). I don't recall any significant issues with the 240 et seq., but then I haven't made a study of the topic. I'm pretty sure someone will jump in and correct me.
brennanphotoguy
Well-known
The only real issue with the M240 was with a few of the early models having strap lugs that liked to come unhinged from the body.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
The M-E and MM both have sensors of that era. Just haven't had any issues with the ones in my cameras yet. If I do Leica will replace them.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Some clarification is needed, I see. Yes, it could only happen on a camera with a short register distance, so the normal cover glass had to be replaced by a coating.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
The real test of a company, in my opinion, is the way a company handles it when a problem comes up. In my opinion Leica was out in front of this issue and has taken the proper steps to handle it. Every dog has their day and I have seem problems with other companies not being hailed as well.