Has Leica alienated photographers?

[jsrockit]

Today, I use a couple of Fuji X-System bodies because they are what I can afford.

Me too... I'm just saying that if you make a thread about how Leica alienated photographers, you probably are of the opinion that you'd like a Leica, but they are not priced right for you. Nothing wrong with that, but not every tool is going to be affordable.

 

[nikonhswebmaster]

Me too... I'm just saying that if you make a thread about how Leica alienated photographers, you probably are of the opinion that you'd like a Leica, but they are not priced right for you. Nothing wrong with that, but not every tool is going to be affordable.

I always wonder myself about "priced-right."

I have paid far more for Nikon RF items than the cost of a new Leica, but still the Leica seems too dear to me, for a current consumer product.

So I don't buy one, since obviously, as someone not selling work, I don't "need" one.

It seems (perhaps irrationally?) an extravagance.

 

[jsrockit]

I have paid far more for Nikon RF items than the cost of a new Leica, but still the Leica seems too dear to me, for a current consumer product.

Maybe it's the fact of depreciation in digital?

 

[Godfrey]

Maybe it's the fact of depreciation in digital?

In my opinion, nowadays the "fact of depreciation in digital" is a myth and a sign of hyperactive expectations driven by marketing. Nearly any quality digital camera made for the past half a decade will produce excellent results for as long as you want to use it. The constant desire for better, for more, is an artifact of marketing boosterism to drive sales of new product.

I was somewhat ambivalent about the M9, my first digital M, as it didn't really meet the standards of responsiveness and usability that I took as a Leica hallmark. The M/M-P typ 240 solved those issues for me completely, and the M-D typ 262 achieves the next level for me with its utter simplicity and ease of handling. I could work with either of these two cameras for the next decade, or more, and never need an upgrade.

We are conditioned by today's marketing to always want more more more, and as a result are quickly dissatisfied with things that already work perfectly well. I've long since given up on trying to keep up with the latest, couldn't care less what my cameras are worth after I purchase them, and would much rather put my money, time, and effort into making photographs that reflect my intent better than trying to improve my work by buying newer cameras.

G

 

[jaapv]

I think there is simply a duality that non-1% Leica users have to accept. Leica makes (some) cameras that nearly perfectly capture the idea of a tool that is both nostalgic and practical in a way that is very attractive to a certain type of person. At the same time, Leica has decided that their target market is the 'gadget' seeking 1%er for whom exclusivity is more important than pure functionality.

The fact is, Leica could have a DRF that is made overseas with a price target that is in line with a 5D4 or D810 if they wanted to. This would be a larger (not iPhone large, but maybe XPro2/RX1RII/A7RII large) market targeted camera and you could consider the premium in line with the Leica version of the LX100 (Aprx 35% more expensive. The M240 has an RF, but the digital technology is no more advanced than what you see in a Nikon D610, or Canon 6D, and in many ways worse, but still completely acceptable). Right now the M240 is well over double the price of the most popular professional cameras, the 5D4 and D810. In a world where Leica wanted as many people as possible to use their cameras they could have a camera that costs $1000 bucks more than a Canikon and people would call it expensive but it would be worth it to some. What Leica has done though, is decide that those people don't get to buy their cameras. It makes it very difficult to own a system for work, AND a Leica digital for personal projects and suited professional jobs. But Leica sees a world where only a special few elite get to use their cameras and lenses. In that way, yes, they have alienated many photographers, but they have not alienated their target market. There is another market of enthusiasts who simply deal with the expense, but I have a hard time believing that these people are making a living with their Leicas, or any other camera. Once you start being a camera-for-hire you have to make tougher choices because your rent depends on it.

What I find frustrating is that Leica could continue making certain ultra luxury items while at the same time making a camera for the rest of us. There is no reason why the M 262 needs to be made in germany and cost $5k, for example. That camera should be $3500 bucks and say "Designed by Leica, Germany". I would own one and I wouldn't even feel bad about it. My no B/S D750 money maker that I got refurbished for $1400 dollars pays the bills, but I wouldn't mind spending more for a new RF that I could use at weddings and not feel like I was choosing between a D5 (tool) and a toy.

The point is that Leica is aiming at the top of the amateur market which demands professional level tools. In that market they are not expensive. Golfing, a decent sailing boat, a horse, a classic car or many other hobbies will be more expensive on a yearly basis than Leica photography. Heck, when I go on safari it will cost far more than the writeoff on the camera gear I am carrying. Is it extreme luxury in a world where millions are starving? Yes - shamefully so. Is it luxury in our western society? - Not even close.

And for a professional? Let's assume that a full-time wedding photographer carries 20.000 Euro worth of Leica equipment. Two bodies, three lenses. In three years time the bodies will have depreciated 5000 Euro, the lenses probably zero, but let's assume 1000. That is 2000 Euro a year. He will be writing it off against taxes in five years. That is 4000 a year. Assume 50% taxes, net gain on the gear? 2000 Euro. Cost? Zero.

 

[______]

I've long since given up on trying to keep up with the latest, couldn't care less what my cameras are worth after I purchase them, and would much rather put my money, time, and effort into making photographs that reflect my intent better than trying to improve my work by buying newer cameras.

Rings a little hollow coming from someone who upgraded his M9 to an M240 and then to a M262. Sounds like you buy each new iteration of digital Leica every three years like clockwork.

 

[Godfrey]

Rings a little hollow coming from someone who upgraded his M9 to an M240 and then to a M262. Sounds like you buy each new iteration of digital Leica every three years like clockwork.

You can think what you want, but that's not a good characterization of my personal equipment juggling. Explaining what I've done is a waste of time and doesn't reflect the point I was making anyway.

G

 

[BlackXList]

The point is that Leica is aiming at the top of the amateur market which demands professional level tools. In that market they are not expensive. Golfing, a decent sailing boat, a horse, a classic car or many other hobbies will be more expensive on a yearly basis than Leica photography. .

But if I want to be a top end amateur photographer, my choice isnt "do I buy a Leica or a Sailboat" That's a false equivalence.

It's "do I buy a Leica or another camera brand"

If you insist on the Rangefinder experience, then Leica is the only game in town, if the method of focusing isn't the crux of it for you, then there's plenty of other choices, most of which outperform for much less.

 

[jaapv]

I have not found many cameras that outperform the Leica M plus M lenses. I can think of a Leica SL or a Hasselblad X1D, that's about it. And both have their own drawbacks. At a lower price? I wish there were... Even the top DSLRs, with higher resolution and unattractive ergonomics/size are at best at the same level, and in the same price bracket. If you really want to outperform you will have to enter Leica S/Phase1 territory.
As for choice of hobby, well, that is limited by your financial capacity - and the tolerance of your partner.

 

[BlackXList]

I'm sorry, but the M series do not compete with the top end DSLRs, for output or price. that's simply not true.

If the form factor of DSLRs is something you have a genuine problem with, and mirrorless doesn't do it for you, or if you absolutely have to have rangefinder focusing, then Leica is the only game in town, I respect that choice, it's not my choice, but I respect it.

The question of whether Leica has alienated photographers isn't the question "has Leica alienated Leica users" it's "Has Leica alienated Photographers", and if you're not 100% tied to the rangefinder experience, the answer seems clearly to be yes.

 

[______]

I have not found many cameras that outperform the Leica M plus M lenses. I can think of a Leica SL or a Hasselblad X1D, that's about it. And both have their own drawbacks. At a lower price? I wish there were... Even the top DSLRs, with higher resolution and unattractive ergonomics/size are at best at the same level, and in the same price bracket. If you really want to outperform you will have to enter Leica S/Phase1 territory.
As for choice of hobby, well, that is limited by your financial capacity - and the tolerance of your partner.

This is of course your subjective opinion, and why you are a Leica user. We each find the camera and lens which best fulfills our own vision.

 

[jaapv]

Aren't all opinions subjective?

 

[CameraQuest]

I have not found many cameras that outperform the Leica M plus M lenses. I can think of a Leica SL or a Hasselblad X1D, that's about it. And both have their own drawbacks. At a lower price? I wish there were... Even the top DSLRs, with higher resolution and unattractive ergonomics/size are at best at the same level, and in the same price bracket. If you really want to outperform you will have to enter Leica S/Phase1 territory.
As for choice of hobby, well, that is limited by your financial capacity - and the tolerance of your partner.

I could be wrong, but I am expecting the new Fuji medium format to out perform all digital Leica M, SL, S and Hassy X1D, and of course all other full frame digital sensors as well.

Are my hopes realistic? By mid year 2017 we should all know.

Stephen

 

[SaveKodak]

I have not found many cameras that outperform the Leica M plus M lenses. I can think of a Leica SL or a Hasselblad X1D, that's about it. And both have their own drawbacks. At a lower price? I wish there were... Even the top DSLRs, with higher resolution and unattractive ergonomics/size are at best at the same level, and in the same price bracket. If you really want to outperform you will have to enter Leica S/Phase1 territory.
As for choice of hobby, well, that is limited by your financial capacity - and the tolerance of your partner.

The ''top" DSLRs are built as sports/action/speed cameras, the top cameras built for IQ are the much cheaper ones like the D810, 5Dsr, and A7RII. In many ways the D5 has worse picture quality than even the D750, but that's not why you use it. If you try any of these mid-tier bodies you'll quickly understand that Leica has the worst sensors on the market and they do a disservice to their own lenses via cost cutting/refusing to use contemporary sensors (I suspect they do this also because it's easier to market non-Sony sensors to luxury buyers). An opinion is "I like Leica sensors." A statement of fact is "Leica uses the best sensors." One is subject to debate, the other only subjective. I'm willing to entertain an argument as to how Leica sensors best fit your goals/aesthetic/workflow. However claiming that you have to buy a Phase One camera to beat Leica is a bit problematic.

 

[______]

Aren't all opinions subjective?

No. Without delving into epistemology and metaphysics, contrast "In my opinion, blue is prettier than green" with "In my opinion, the earth is flat", or more to the point "In my opinion, Leica lenses have the most pleasing bokeh" vs. "In my opinion, Leica lenses are the sharpest".

You used the word "outperform" which is so multifaceted and vague that it could only be deemed a subjective opinion.

As I have quoted elsewhere:

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

 

[vladimir]

Has Ferrari, Lamborghini, Audi, RR, Bentley act. alienated you?

 

[CameraQuest]

Folks,

Jaapv is certainly welcome to believe Leica image quality is best - many Leica photogs share that same view.

Whether its true or not, or even if the best images can be taken with a digital camera, film camera, glass plate or daguerrotype
doesn't really matter as much as all of us seem to care about photography, imaging, and yes, cameras too.

Suppose we get along better and understand each other more?

 

[AusDLK]

Barkeep --

I entered this thread only on the last page so that is a consideration...

What I have gleaned is a general weariness of the Leica "fanboy" attitude that has filled these threads for the decade + that I have been on-again off-again RFF participant.

The very title of this thread is guaranteed to fire-up both the fanboys and detractors. To which, I ask when is enough enough?

Dave.

Folks,

Jaapv is certainly welcome to believe Leica image quality is best - many Leica photogs share that same view.

Whether its true or not, or even if the best images can be taken with a digital camera, film camera, glass plate or daguerrotype
doesn't really matter as much as all of us seem to care about photography, imaging, and yes, cameras too.

Suppose we get along better and understand each other more?

 

[nikonhswebmaster]

Folks,

Jaapv is certainly welcome to believe Leica image quality is best - many Leica photogs share that same view.

Agreed. But we all should avoid the "let them eat cake" mentality that is in the air.

More useful -- it seems to me -- is helping those with fewer resources acquire really useful Leica gear at reasonable prices. There is great Leica gear for almost any budget. For years I owned a nice M3 DS with gaffer's tape "vulcanite." I could live with an M8.

 

[user237428934]

Barkeep --

I entered this thread only on the last page so that is a consideration...

What I have gleaned is a general weariness of the Leica "fanboy" attitude that has filled these threads for the decade + that I have been on-again off-again RFF participant.

The very title of this thread is guaranteed to fire-up both the fanboys and detractors. To which, I ask when is enough enough?

Dave.

When I look at forums of Olympus or Fuji equipment then we see the worst type of fanboy-ism there. When you try to criticize the sensor or type of the equipment then you are really attacked hard. This is worse than what I've ever seen on a Leica forum.
Another interesting observation is, that a Leica forum is far more attractive to non-Leica users / non-Leica understanders / Leica haters than any other brand-forum to other non-brand users.

If you want civil conversation the best approach is to keep the trolls out.