Has Leica alienated photographers?

[______]

All of these sorts of special edition cameras are pure marketing things to bring attention to Leica and have little to do with the photographic side of Leica Camera.

The fact that so many in the "photographer" community disparage them only means that they're being noticed, which means the marketing effort is well-spent. MANY people, even outside the photographic world, notice them as they are immediately a part of the collection world, which has little to do with the photography world.

The specials are produced in tiny little allotments and the development money spent in their direction is miniscule compared to what it takes to design an upgrade to the actual cameras they're based on.

G

Yes, special editions bring attention to Leica. But what kind of attention? And yes, they are being noticed, but it is, as you say, photographers who disparage them. So if that is the response that Leica wants to engender, then it is money well spent. Like I said, special editions do not alienate me, but they do underscore a certain narrative which may attract some photographers and alienate others.

 

[pgk]

I'm sorry, but the M series do not compete with the top end DSLRs, for output or price. that's simply not true.

Well, doesn't it depend what you are using them for? If you are shooting with a specific aim in mind for which the output of either is more than good enough and both are more than capable of shooting the required material then which is best - whichever you prefer and can afford. Remember that far, far more cameras are bought by amateurs than professionals and this includes top end DSLRs. Professionals tend to use what does the job best. In my case I use both DSLRs and Leica Ms professionally and will pick up the Ms whenever I can rather than the heavy and cumbersome DSLRs. This might not accord with your expectations but there you go.

 

[jszokoli]

This new all brass edition of the Leica M-P doesn't alienate me, but it does tend to underscore a certain narrative about who Leica sees as its intended customer base.

This pretty much goes hand in hand with the posting in another thread where a well-known member of RFF has announced the Eighth Annual Beauty Contest for cameras at the February meet-up.

Having been to a bunch of the NY RFF Camera Beauty Contests I can tell you that a brass limited edition Leica is not what it's about. It's much more down to earth and 'beauty' is in the eye of the beholder, and given that this is a RFF group, quite quirky. Some of the personalities that gather at NY meet-ups may seem a little over the top but come to a meet-up, and meet the group and I'm sure you will leave feeling you have been with some kindred spirits.

And no Lieca has not alienated me...

Joe

 

[BlackXList]

No doubt the DSLRs are better for lots of things. Weddings, Sports, Video. But you think there is a DSLR set up which is going to beat M240+28 cron, or 35FLE, or 50APO or 75cron or 90aa or 135APO just in terms of image quality in an 8x10?

Ok you can take the D810 + 55 otus and compete, except then you have carry it LOL

Yes, I absolutely do think there are off the shelf options that utterly outstrip them.

I'm not holding this up as the world's greatest shot or anything close, but it's an ISO 4000 shot at 50mm on a Canon from 2012, and its' a rubbish automatically (by the host) resized version of the shot.

And Nikon and Sony have been beating Canon for low light for a number of years now, so it's no high water mark of what's possible at all.

As I said before if you're utterly committed to the RF experience, they're the only game in town, and I respect your choice, it's not mine, but I respect it.

Let's not act like they're even on the same playing field as the other companies though.

 

[Godfrey]

Yes, special editions bring attention to Leica. But what kind of attention? And yes, they are being noticed, but it is, as you say, photographers who disparage them. So if that is the response that Leica wants to engender, then it is money well spent. Like I said, special editions do not alienate me, but they do underscore a certain narrative which may attract some photographers and alienate others.

IMO, only the foolish disparage them. Most people (including most photographers) at least find them amusing. Many find them quite pretty, if a bit absurd at time. I know plenty of photographers who would never buy one but would love to have one.

Be that as it may, the only Leica narrative that is of any significance to me is: "Superb build, excellent lenses, top notch rendering, and simplicity in design." If you the fact that superb build, excellent lenses, top notch rendering, and simplicity in design costs a lot to manufacture alienating, well, that's something that you have to deal with. I'm glad there is an alternative to the shoddily made, poorly designed, other cameras that have no discernible design center other than "throw every feature in that every possible buyer might want to grab any bit of market share possible; sell it cheap so they'll buy another in nine months."

I find *that* totally alienating.

G

 

[______]

What part of "special editions do not alienate me" do you fail to comprehend? My newest film camera is over thirty years old and my digital camera, which I rarely use, was purchased in 2012, so, unlike you, I do not replace my camera with each new iteration (M9, 240, 262). You are barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Godfrey]

What part of "special editions do not alienate me" do you fail to comprehend? My newest film camera is over thirty years old and my digital camera, which I rarely use, was purchased in 2012, so, unlike you, I do not replace my camera with each new iteration (M9, 240, 262). You are barking up the wrong tree.

Sorry you're taking my response so personally. But that's your problem.

I'm not "replacing my camera with each new iteration" as you suggest. I haven't replaced the M-P with anything, I still have it. The M9 was broken, that's why I have the M-P. I bought the M-D as well, later, because I like the simpler, more limited concept ... and find it works for me. I'll probably sell the M-P because I don't need both, but they're both just fine by me.

My M4-2 and my Hasselblads are all from 1978, nearly forty years old. My Nikon F is from 1961.. My Berning Robot was manufactured in 1940. Et cetera.

Capisce?

G

 

[tunalegs]

IMO, only the foolish disparage them. Most people (including most photographers) at least find them amusing. Many find them quite pretty, if a bit absurd at time. I know plenty of photographers who would never buy one but would love to have one.

Special editions are usually a resort of desperation to drive sales. I find that more troubling than amusing.

 

[nikonhswebmaster]

Special editions are usually a resort of desperation to drive sales. I find that more troubling than amusing.

Leica has been making special editions for many years. It never seemed to be about desperation, but more of a bizarre tradition, it really took off in the '70s. It does represent a lot of money.


The absurd list: http://cameraplex.com/5-absurdly-luxurious-special-edition-leica-cameras/

This is a fairly complete list: http://www.apotelyt.com/photo-camera/leica-special-edition

LHSA: http://blog.leica-camera.com/2012/07/12/carl-merkin-a-brief-history-of-lhsa-special-editions/

 

[______]

Sorry you're taking my response so personally. But that's your problem.

Not sure why you keep ascribing to me problems. First it was alienation and now I am taking your comments personally. Wishful thinking?

 

[Godfrey]

Not sure why you keep ascribing to me problems. First it was alienation and now I am taking your comments personally.

You'll find the answer by reading your own posts. Leica isn't alienating me at all; you're doing your best to. So I don't see much reason to read your posts any more: I'm giving you a timeout on my ignore list. 😎

Merry Christmas!

G

 

[ajramirez]

All of these Leica bashing threads seem to me like a mean spirited attempt by people who either cannot afford a Leica, or whose particular set of values prevents them owning one, to somehow make those of us who own and shoot Leica feel uncomfortable with our choice. If you dislike Leica, no one is forcing you to buy one. Live and let live, I say.

 

[cz23]

All of these Leica bashing threads seem to me like a mean spirited attempt by people who either cannot afford a Leica, or whose particular set of values prevents them owning one, to somehow make those of us who own and shoot Leica feel uncomfortable with our choice. If you dislike Leica, no one is forcing you to buy one. Live and let live, I say.

Amen. And how about no more talk of alienation in 2017. We in America already have more than enough of that to go around. Let's not carry this thread over the 2017 threshold.

John

 

[DwF]

Amen. And how about no more talk of alienation in 2017. We in America already have more than enough of that to go around. Let's not carry this thread over the 2017 threshold.

John

I'd never opened this thread until now. I read down the first page, and wondered how could this thread could go 11 pages. Seeing John's post above, I second the suggestion and hoist a holiday glass to the sentiment!

David

 

[Godfrey]

All of these Leica bashing threads seem to me like a mean spirited attempt by people who either cannot afford a Leica, or whose particular set of values prevents them owning one, to somehow make those of us who own and shoot Leica feel uncomfortable with our choice. If you dislike Leica, no one is forcing you to buy one. Live and let live, I say.

Amen. And how about no more talk of alienation in 2017. We in America already have more than enough of that to go around. Let's not carry this thread over the 2017 threshold.

John

Amen, amen.
Let there be Peace in our Time!

G

 

[BlackXList]

IMO, only the foolish disparage them. Most people (including most photographers) at least find them amusing. Many find them quite pretty, if a bit absurd at time. I know plenty of photographers who would never buy one but would love to have one.

Be that as it may, the only Leica narrative that is of any significance to me is: "Superb build, excellent lenses, top notch rendering, and simplicity in design." If you the fact that superb build, excellent lenses, top notch rendering, and simplicity in design costs a lot to manufacture alienating, well, that's something that you have to deal with. I'm glad there is an alternative to the shoddily made, poorly designed, other cameras that have no discernible design center other than "throw every feature in that every possible buyer might want to grab any bit of market share possible; sell it cheap so they'll buy another in nine months."

I find *that* totally alienating.

G

In response to the bolded section.

Sensor corrosion, I'm sure I've read something about top plates, worn out strap lugs, months on end for repairs, huge slow zooms, a 50mm with visible distortion (that's impressive to manage), software corrections for the lenses on the Q and SL, and a focusing system that can go out of wack, and you need to send it off to have it calibrated.

doesn't match up with your list to me.

You're a "Leica shooter" and dedicated to it, the question is wider than "has Leica alienated Leica shooters" it's "has it alienated photographers" and it's been pointed out before that this is a very different question.

Honestly I wholeheartedly hope you enjoy your experience with them.
I want Leica to continue to be a success, even though I'm absolutely horrible with Rangefinders.

One of the things that will enable that is brutal honesty about where they sit in the photography world, where you feel like they do well of course, but also where they fall behind other manufacturers.

There are people on here who have contact with people at Leica, we know they're aware of the site. I absolutely understand that when you find the camera that is right for you, you feel an emotional connection to it. I feel the same about some of my gear. I'm aware of it's issues though.

We all know their photojournalistic pedigree, and they certainly trade on it. How many are actively choosing a Leica over the alternatives now? and for those who arent, why not?

 

[uhoh7]

Yes, I absolutely do think there are off the shelf options that utterly outstrip them.

I'm not holding this up as the world's greatest shot or anything close, but it's an ISO 4000 shot at 50mm on a Canon from 2012, and its' a rubbish automatically (by the host) resized version of the shot.

And Nikon and Sony have been beating Canon for low light for a number of years now, so it's no high water mark of what's possible at all.

As I said before if you're utterly committed to the RF experience, they're the only game in town, and I respect your choice, it's not mine, but I respect it.

Let's not act like they're even on the same playing field as the other companies though.

It's a nice shot but shows nothing. Of course there are many cameras which are better at high ISO than any M, you don't think anybody knows that? At base ISO forget it. Great lenses and very little in front of the sensor is powerful. M9 remains superb camera today. I prefer it to any DSLR. 5DSr, 1Dx, whatever. Gives you many choices those heavy monstrosities never can. Shoots every M/LTM lens ever made, and with few exceptions, extremely well with incredible clarity.

Maybe you are one of those who thinks there is nothing special about a 8-elemnet cron, a 75 lux or a nikkor 8.5cm f/2.

That's fine. You don't have to appreciate them. But telling us what an M can and cannot do is pretty silly, because you obviously don't get it.

The are working reporters for the NYtimes using M9s etc today. Many of the most famous shooters today own a personal Leica. Why? You think people who admire Leica know nothing about DSLRs? haha, some don't, but plenty use them all the time. You think they are just stupid?


Really? by unoh7, 1954 Nikkor 8.5cm, the lens which caught DDD's eye and helped get Nikon into the US market.

BTW that's what you get if you spend an extra 400 on your Sony A7 to try to make it shoot as good as a M9 or M240. It still won't LOL

 

[ajramirez]

I want Leica to continue to be a success, even though I'm absolutely horrible with Rangefinders.

One of the things that will enable that is brutal honesty about where they sit in the photography world, where you feel like they do well of course, but also where they fall behind other manufacturers.

Really? So the reason for your various posts in this thread is for Leica to become aware of "where they sit in the photography world" so that they "continue to be a success?" If that's the case, then just write them a letter pointing out their flaws and suggesting improvements and stop pontificating on camera forums.

I am now convinced that you have never owned a Leica, digital or film. Your attempt to use a 2012 Canon shot as a point of reference as to what purportedly Leica has not been able to achieve technically is simply absurd. Technically, the shot is nothing to write home about, and the quality is easily surpassed by any of the current M bodies.

I shot Canon for more than 30 years, until very recently. I now shoot Nikon (Df) and Leica digital (M-P Typ 240). I can tell you, without any doubt, that as much as I love the Df and my Zeiss primes, the M-P and Leica glass is clearly superior, and much easier to manual focus. With my Nikkor AF glass, there is simply no question that the Leica is superior, albeit less convenient to use.

And as to being superbly crafted instruments, well, the Nikon is nicely put together, but the rubber bits in my less than 2 years old Df are starting to come unglued. My older M-P still looks brand new, and the fit and finish are in a whole other league altogether. And, no need for rangefinder adjustments yet.

I will reiterate my prior statement. If you do not like Leica, don't buy Leica. Just let the rest of us enjoy our gear.

 

[______]

1954 Nikkor 8.5cm, the lens which caught DDD's eye and helped get Nikon into the US market.

I'm not sure who DDD is, but are your holding up the dog photo as a testament to what a Leica digital camera can achieve that no other camera can?

 

[uhoh7]

I'm not sure who DDD is, but are your holding up the dog photo as a testament to what a Leica digital camera can achieve that no other camera can?

No, I'm not. 🙂

DDD=David Douglas Duncan

It's funny some say oh, if you must have the "RF experience", OK then, maybe you should get a Leica.

In 2013 I bought a A7r and tested 30 lenses on it. I was so pissed, I sent it back and got a A7. I tested on that. Then somebody here showed me some M9 shots with a 28 elmarit I think. They were so far ahead my jaw just dropped.

I bought an M9 in spite of the RF, not because of it LOL. But now I like it 🙂

Here is v4 cron on M9

High Bank by unoh7, on Flickr

I don't post it to prove anything to anybody. I like it. What you like is your business 🙂