ptpdprinter
Veteran
Of course the legacy Leica lenses won’t cover the Hasselblad sensor but what’s a little vignetting and poor edge resolution among friends.
Hasselblad X2D, Just out. M11 Killer?
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Rob-F
Likes Leicas
I agree. I'm sure it's a fine camera, but if an M11 is what one wants, the hasselblad won't do. Besides, if I buy an M11, then I get to use all my Leica lenses on it. If I bought this Hasselblad, I'd have to buy all new lenses (I'm assuming I can't use my 500C/M type lenses on it).
Actually I'm pretty happy with my M9 and M9M.
But many EVF cameras can already be used with M lenses... pretty much all of them. Why would this one be THE ONE to make people want to switch from a Leica M? I mean, people already use the Leica SL series this way.
I think the size and shape of the M combined with the mechanical rangefinder is exactly why people who stick to a Leica M do so. I have a Fujifilm GFX-50R. I could use M mount lenses on it, but I do not see the purpose of doing so. I want to use a mechanical rangefinder for those lenses.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
Regardless of price point, having had in person experience with both, they offer about the same in imaging quality.
M (or R) lenses do not work particularly well on 33x44 if you're being critical ... they lose out on edge and corner quality, show vignetting and other aberrations. The aberrations and degradation are occasionally acceptable depending upon use, for me, but why spend even the cost of either of these bodies alone without getting lenses that fulfills the body's promise across the frame?
The X2D body may be only a pound heavier but that is not counting the weight of the lenses, and their size. My four Hasselblad X lenses standing behind the four M-mount lenses in my kit that approximately match them for FoV ...
.. and a comparison of their FoV and weights:
I don't have an X1D II or X2D body here to compare the weight against my M10-M, but the M10-M is about 750g and the 907x/CFVII 50c is about 900g ... the X1D/X2D are about 20-25% heavier than the 907x. So double the weight on the body for similar size, double or more the weight of a four lens kit ... not to mention the much larger size of the lenses. Hasselblad XCD lenses to give comparable performance to Leica/Voigtländer/Zeiss lenses are $3000-6000 apiece, other than the XCD 45P (the smallest and lightest of them all, and only $1200 or so).
The Hasselblad X2D is a wonderful complementary kit to a Leica M10-M, M10-R or M11. It is not a competitor in use. If you prefer one over the other ... up to you and always fine by me.
To compare things you need data as a basis of comparison ... weights, measures, prices, achieved performance from use, etc. Not imaginary things based on reading specifications and other people's opinions. All of my opinions are my own based on my direct, personal use and ownership of the equipment being discussed, plus the loaned X1D II body.
Having used the 907x/CFVII 50c and its lenses for two and a half years, tested the X1D II body with the same lenses, and having used Leica M9, M-P240, M-D262, and now M10-M bodies and their lenses for the past decade plus, I debate with myself whether I should just sell off my entire Hasselblad kit for the lighter, faster operating, and nearly comparable performing M10-R or M11 (pocketing the rest of the change) so as to have a color camera that's lighter and more approachable for carrying and shooting in the field (and, btw, one set of lenses to manage...). The size and weight of the XCD lenses is a big part of why I don't carry the Hasselblad anywhere near as much as the Leica, never mind that the Leica is just so much faster in operation.
G
—
You takes your choices and you pays your money.
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
If you are attached to the rangefinders at the wrist and ankles the X2D is not your camera.
Leica mount lenses do work on the X2D. There are two adapters I know of out there. There is already one video on YT of a fellow shooting with Leica mount lenses on the X2D so lets put that lie to bed. Some lenses do vignette. Not all lenses vignette. That works for me.
I look at this camera, the X2D, as an interesting alternative to the M11. Let's start with M11 QC. B&H has had returns of M11's for various problems. From the company that considers itself as the best camera manufacturer in the world this is bad. It is worse than bad. The M8 and M9 were nosebleeds. Come on, Wetzlar, really? To see reports of the M11 plagued with returns is just so wrong. I have never heard of Hasselbald having QC problems. Maybe the owners can tell me otherwise. Please come forward with reports.
The X2D costs exactly the same as the M11 so that is a hint not a coincidence. The lenses for it cost about the same as Leica lenses do for the M11, so that is a wash there. It is marginally heavier. They come with neck straps to relieve that one pound vs two pounds. It is about the same size and shape as the M11. I know this may raise howls from the real Barnack acolytes but lets not descend to hairsplitting over this. The form appears to be more "hand friendly" than the M11 but I know this will be disputed. That's OK. So what does it offer? A better image and a bigger image. From what I have read and seen the color and detail are better in the X2D than the M11. OK, what is the purpose of a camera? Right, to produce an image and it has been that way since the camera obscura. I'd go for the better image. If you want to sacrifice image quality for the joy of rangefinders that is your choice. I do not. Add in greater dynamic range and greater color palette at 16 bits, autofocus and a choice in use of EVF screen or viewfinder it gets easier for me. But the bottom line is better and bigger images. Rangefinder focus is not that important for me to sacrifice image quality for it.
I have used SLR in some form or fashion since the early 80's. Autofocus and autoexposure may not appeal to the purists but it does raise your batting average. Purist fly fishermen pinch the barbs shut on their hooks. They do not catch many fish but they sure enjoy not catching fish. I try to remove all the impediments between me and success.
Leica mount lenses do work on the X2D. There are two adapters I know of out there. There is already one video on YT of a fellow shooting with Leica mount lenses on the X2D so lets put that lie to bed. Some lenses do vignette. Not all lenses vignette. That works for me.
I look at this camera, the X2D, as an interesting alternative to the M11. Let's start with M11 QC. B&H has had returns of M11's for various problems. From the company that considers itself as the best camera manufacturer in the world this is bad. It is worse than bad. The M8 and M9 were nosebleeds. Come on, Wetzlar, really? To see reports of the M11 plagued with returns is just so wrong. I have never heard of Hasselbald having QC problems. Maybe the owners can tell me otherwise. Please come forward with reports.
The X2D costs exactly the same as the M11 so that is a hint not a coincidence. The lenses for it cost about the same as Leica lenses do for the M11, so that is a wash there. It is marginally heavier. They come with neck straps to relieve that one pound vs two pounds. It is about the same size and shape as the M11. I know this may raise howls from the real Barnack acolytes but lets not descend to hairsplitting over this. The form appears to be more "hand friendly" than the M11 but I know this will be disputed. That's OK. So what does it offer? A better image and a bigger image. From what I have read and seen the color and detail are better in the X2D than the M11. OK, what is the purpose of a camera? Right, to produce an image and it has been that way since the camera obscura. I'd go for the better image. If you want to sacrifice image quality for the joy of rangefinders that is your choice. I do not. Add in greater dynamic range and greater color palette at 16 bits, autofocus and a choice in use of EVF screen or viewfinder it gets easier for me. But the bottom line is better and bigger images. Rangefinder focus is not that important for me to sacrifice image quality for it.
I have used SLR in some form or fashion since the early 80's. Autofocus and autoexposure may not appeal to the purists but it does raise your batting average. Purist fly fishermen pinch the barbs shut on their hooks. They do not catch many fish but they sure enjoy not catching fish. I try to remove all the impediments between me and success.
ptpdprinter
Veteran
This is deja vu all over again. Where have we heard this story before? Oh yeah, the Pixii II. The search for the holy grail of cameras continues. What will it be next month?
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
Wait and see.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
bolded 1: I don't know what the readout speed of the new 100Mpixel sensor is, but the 50Mpixel sensor has a 300ms readout speed ... which means that adapting other than the leaf shutter lenses it was designed to work with and running on the electronic shutter is quite tricky. I have done this with my CFVII 50c and the results can be very good, and they can be very poor, depending upon the subject matter. Things in motion are pretty much hopeless. On top of that is the format coverage problem, and R-mount lenses do work better than M-mount lenses when used in adaptations due to the difference in lens mount register. ... I have both R->X and M->X mount adapters and have done quite a lot of photography with them, but there are issues and limitations that are significant, which is why I ended up with four X-system Hasselblad lenses that I use MOST of the time.
bolded 2: My 907xCFVII 50c was plagued with some odd problems from the day I got it. It went back to Hasselblad service twice and they couldn't find anything. Then, one day, I went to switch the back onto my 500CM and a little terminal connector flew out. A microscope examination of the rear plate of the camera showed that the drilling for this connector was off-angle and it had broken through, allowing the pin to be launched free. Another trip to Hasselblad for service ... problem solved with a new backplate and connector array on the 907x body. Hasselblad service was very good, I was not put out ... problems happen, and a good company supports you and helps solve them.
Problems happen with any production process ... nothing is perfect. Leica's problems are no different from any other manufacturer, particularly with a new product. My M9 suffered the catastrophic sensor rot, a sad thing, but Leica supported me and many other with repairs and return of the full resale value. My M-P240 that replaced it never had a single problem, same for my M-D262, same for my Leica CL, same for my Leica SL, same for my new M10 Monochrom ... etc.
How much "better" the X2D is with respect to image quality compared to an M10-R or M11 is highly debatable, since all three of these cameras can produce superlative results. At this level of equipment quality, it's more up to the photographer than the camera to make a photograph that sings.
But it sounds like you've convinced yourself that the X2D is a superior camera for all purposes, and d**n that Leica GmBH!
Now go buy one, make a few thousand great photos with it, and report back as to how well it works for you.
G
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
Well, we will have to agree to disagree here. I know the adaption of M mount lenses to the X2D is not perfect. While that may be a problem for you it is not one for me. The camera seems to work very well with its own lenses. Getting an M mount to work is a bonus not a requirement. As for the problems with your 907 and applying them to the X2D it is like comparing the M8/M9 problems to an M10 as a cautionary tale. I do not doubt that there will be problems with the X2D. We both have worked in highly technical industries and know that even an infinite number of walk-throughs will not bullet-proof anything. We both have a bushel of war stories. My complaint about Leica was their sleazy approach to remedies for the M8 and M9 design errors. If they wanted to defend their rep they would have simply said, "Give us your camera and we will fix it, no charge and we are sorry for your inconvenience." Instead they weaseled it. And now to see complaints at B&H about lousy QC at Leica brings up the memories of past woes. B&H simply replaces the faulty camera. This would indicate to me that Leica is doing what it can on sales to make it whole. Lets see what they do on support which was their failing in the past.
My interest in the X2D is that the image is better and bigger. 15 stops of dynamic range and 16 bit color is hot. And it packs a lot of bells and whistles to get the user closer to the finish line. I use a rangefinder camera because that is how the M8.2 and M9 came, not because I like rangefinder cameras. I gave up ease if use for image quality. I see in the X2D a camera which has both ease of use and image quality, lots of it. Auto-exposure is a given with Leicas so no news there. Autofocus is not a given and a welcome tool. You fiddle with the focus ring, I'll push the button. Five way IBIS is kind of nice and adds some "functional" f-stops that would not have been there otherwise.
So while the Leica M's are a lovely yesterday the X2D is a lovely today. Their design quality and construction are on a par. The choice, then, is yesterday or today. As I already have Leicas I know how they work. It is like saying I have a quality car even if I do have to hand crank it to start it. I like putting the key in the ignition and turning it. YMMV
Cheers
My interest in the X2D is that the image is better and bigger. 15 stops of dynamic range and 16 bit color is hot. And it packs a lot of bells and whistles to get the user closer to the finish line. I use a rangefinder camera because that is how the M8.2 and M9 came, not because I like rangefinder cameras. I gave up ease if use for image quality. I see in the X2D a camera which has both ease of use and image quality, lots of it. Auto-exposure is a given with Leicas so no news there. Autofocus is not a given and a welcome tool. You fiddle with the focus ring, I'll push the button. Five way IBIS is kind of nice and adds some "functional" f-stops that would not have been there otherwise.
So while the Leica M's are a lovely yesterday the X2D is a lovely today. Their design quality and construction are on a par. The choice, then, is yesterday or today. As I already have Leicas I know how they work. It is like saying I have a quality car even if I do have to hand crank it to start it. I like putting the key in the ignition and turning it. YMMV
Cheers
Well, it is settled then is it not? pull out your credit card and order it!
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
I would like to see what users are saying about this camera. They are back ordered so finding that out will take time. I could just opt to sail along with the M9 and the Pixii. The Pixii, by the way, has gotten over some of its naughty ways and has dropped its blue cast. I still cannot get it to talk to the Android app but am hoping David Barth can come online for a TeamViewer session to heal my wounded mignon. Despite quirks and stumbles it does have a very nice image. And for an APS-C it has a lot of good detail
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
I suppose the buyers will be mostly lumberjacks. ;o) OK, it is heavier than the M's. But it also offers so much more in about the same size package and at the same price as the M11. This is significant. We may not be the only people who have noticed this. Some may be saying they will pay the weight price for the image. I look at it and think it is a lot of bang for your buck. I'll bet plenty of others do, too. It's the [NODE="1"]n[/NODE]umber 1 Best Seller at B&H but that is normal with a hot new release. My position was and is that this is an interesting and challenging camera. It is a threat to Leica for this reason. That seems undeniable to me. And let's face it, while Leica may be king here it is number 9 of 10 in camera sales. There are other cameras, great lumbering ones. And while Hasselblad is not in the top 10 camera sales they may want to be. Whom can they knock off?
Godfrey
somewhat colored
bolded - This is exactly the point. You keep saying the X2D is "about the same size package and at the same price as the M11". From actual, direct experience using BOTH systems, i can assure you that it is NOT "about the same size" although the body may be "about the same weight" ... depends on what you consider "about" to mean.
Hasselblad X2D vs Leica M11: https://camerasize.com/compare/#893,885
You want to believe that the difference in the body size is trivial and irrelevant. The difference in lens sizes I documented above ... you want to say that it also is irrelevant. Fine. As jsrockit said, "Get out your credit card and enjoy."
'Nuff said. Good luck.
G
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
I am not saying that you or anybody should buy an X2D. What I am saying is that it looks very much like an interesting camera and offers a lot. A real lot, and twice the size. This in addition to a reasonable - for cameras in the stratosphere - price. It may be heretical to say that the images are better than the M11. That is the report from people who are using the X2D not some other Hasselblad.
X2D: 5.8 x 4.2 x 2.9"
M11: 5.5 x 3.1 x 1.5"
X2D: 895 g
M11: 530 g
X2D 55mm: 372 g
M11 50mm f/1.4: 335 g
The photos of size comparison: https://camerasize.com/compare/#885,893
I cannot speak for what is in your world but in my world these differences are a smidge, a gnat's whisker over trivial. I am but a simple bumpkin who tries to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
(This is an edit from the previous post which Godrey has correctly quoted.)
X2D: 5.8 x 4.2 x 2.9"
M11: 5.5 x 3.1 x 1.5"
X2D: 895 g
M11: 530 g
X2D 55mm: 372 g
M11 50mm f/1.4: 335 g
The photos of size comparison: https://camerasize.com/compare/#885,893
I cannot speak for what is in your world but in my world these differences are a smidge, a gnat's whisker over trivial. I am but a simple bumpkin who tries to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
(This is an edit from the previous post which Godrey has correctly quoted.)
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I've said several times that I had a loaner X1D II for a good while. Obviously I could not get a loaner X2D as they were just announced. The cameras are substantively the same with respect to size, weight, and cost, albeit the X2D is actually a little larger and heavier. Detail differences in size and layout can be seen on
https://camerasize.com/compare/#893,678
While I'm sure the new sensor and other features add something, the difference to a current Hasselblad X1D/907x-CFVII 50c is relatively small, IMO. Neither is in any way competition to what the Leica M is best at. The Hasselblad X2D cameras are more likely serious competition to the Leica SL and S lines of cameras.
Simply put, if I could only have one camera, I'd take my Leica M10-M over anything else at this point in time.
G
Archlich
Well-known
Kills the M11 only in the sense that it's another camera (system) that'll cost people $$$$$.
Otherwise, really apples to oranges.
Otherwise, really apples to oranges.
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
True, this is expensive gear. The old adage of, "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?" can be applied here. Yes, there are diminishing returns as the price goes up but that is not confined to cameras. It is very much a niche item, one defined by large outlays of cash. In addition it has been billed as delivering magnificent images. The initial pics I have seen on-line are good. Reviewers who have compared the X2D to the M11 images say the X2D is the better. But they are in X2D ads so they would say that, wouldn't they?
The spec sheets show it to be the better: 15 stop dynamic range, 16 bit color, IBIS giving 7 f-stops, generous 100Meg image with pretty good color handling engine. Add autofocus in addition to manual, the usual excellent lenses and improved menuing firmware and other bells and whistles all call attention to a release of an interesting piece of hardware dedicated to the sole purpose of superior images. And what other camera occupies this rare bit of turf? Leica. I think it is no accident that the price is the same for each body and it is interesting that the recommended "regular" prime is cheaper for the Hasselblad. All in all it may well deliver more for less. Can the larger, heavier body be accepted in exchange for what promises to be a better color and finer image? Well, we will have to wait until it is out there collecting shutter clicks and arranging electrons out of the ether into some pleasing color photographs. The photos available to us on the internet are the culled finest from a select group of pros. I want to see what mere mortals can do. The cameras are supposed to arrive on September 15th. Then let the games begin.
So if your sole solution to taking pictures is a rangefinder, no, this has no value. However if you are willing to adapt to best technology and solutions the X2D seems a likely contender. And as such it would be a threat to Leica.
You keep saying better. Better in specs yes. But nobody buys a Leica because they want the best specs. If you wanted speed, image quality and high resolution there were already other cameras out there offering these things. Was the Fujifilm GFX100S a threat to
the Leica M? For a few people, maybe. Never discount that people who want to use an optical viewfinder with a mechanical rangefinder in a small package with small lenses do exactly so because it is a unique experience in the modern camera market. If you want the absolute best IQ the Leica M is not the pinnacle.
ptpdprinter
Veteran
This just sounds like an overactive case of GAS, with the rationalizations dialed up to 11.
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
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