Heliar resolution compared to...

[Jamie123]

...a (Hasselblad) Zeiss 80mm CF?

I've been going back and forth between keeping my Hasselblad kit and selling it in order to finance a Bessa III. Just when I decided to keep the Hasselblad for now I get an e-mail from someone who's interested in buying it.

If I were to keep the Hassy I'd have to shell out some money to buy a 60mm (right now I only have my 150mm left) which means that either way I'm spending money. I really would like the Bessa for its portability as the Hassy is a hassle to to carry around, especially when I go on a trip.

Now my question is this. How does the Heliar lens compare to the 80mm Hasselblad lens? I put a test roll through a Bessa III at a local store and while the scans on my Nikon 9000 show the lens to be very sharp, I also have the impression that there's a point where there's no more detail when the Hassy might have done better. Hope this makes sense?

Anyways, resolution is not everything and it's not a deal breaker but I'd still like to know before I sell off all the Hassy stuff 🙂

 

[Tom A]

I dont have a Hasselblad kit anymore - but lots of negs from when I used too. I took some of them out and checked them against the Bessa III negs. I found the Heliar better than my 80 Planar's and up there with the 100f3.5. Dont know if it has more resolution - but it can certainly hold its own - and, a major factor, it is portable.
As with any fixed lens camera (Rollei, Plaubel etc) you are limited to what and how you shoot - but it also forces you to "look" differently.
One major factor here - the Bessa is eerily quiet - unless you check the meterdisplay you are not really sure it fired (it always has so far). The Hasselblad certainly isen't discreet (exception being the SWC). The meter in the Bessa III is also very good - only fouled up exposures I have had, has been when I tried to outsmart it!
If I was shooting commercial stuff - I think the Bessa could be a bit limiting with the lack of wide-angle capability - but for what I am using it for - my own pleasure - it works extremely well. I am switching between 6x6 and 6x7 at the moment - fully well knowing that I will swear when i try to file the 6x7 negs - but they do look gorgeous on a light table.

 

[Jamie123]

Yes, I have tried out the Bessa III and the silent shutter really surprised me. While I do realize that a fixed lens folder has some limitations compared to the Hasselblad I also find those limitations somewhat liberating (not having to carry around a bunch of lenses and backs). Besides, the possibility of shooting 6x6 and 6x7 in 120 and 220 film all combined in such a portable size is a huge plus for me.

 

[Way]

I've found the Bessa III to be a wonderful portable MF camera, though like Tom said, filing the 6x7 are a pain because you can't fit the negs in one negative sheet. Another fairly portable system to consider is the the Mamiya 6. If you don't mind only 6x6 it has great optics (the 50mm is fantastic), AE metering and the lenses collapse into the body for a more compact package.

 

[sevo]

I found the Heliar better than my 80 Planar's and up there with the 100f3.5.

No wonder, as it is essentially the same thing. That lens, called "Heliar" for marketing reasons, is no Heliar but a Planar type.

 

[Jamie123]

I've found the Bessa III to be a wonderful portable MF camera, though like Tom said, filing the 6x7 are a pain because you can't fit the negs in one negative sheet. Another fairly portable system to consider is the the Mamiya 6. If you don't mind only 6x6 it has great optics (the 50mm is fantastic), AE metering and the lenses collapse into the body for a more compact package.

I actually want the Bessa for the 6x7, not 6x6. I like the square but don't love it, otherwise I would probably keep the Hasselblad.
I know what you might say, I could also look into getting a Mamiya 7, which I did. For my taste, however, the Mamiya 7 lenses are almost too sharp and they render colors slightly differently (a bit colder) especially for my favourite film, Portra 400NC. Also it's a bit bulkier and not that much cheaper.

The neg filing for 6x7 is not a big concern for me as I use a wonderful lab which returns the negs in filing sheets already. No extra money spent for me 🙂

 

[eddale]

I just spent eight hours walking around Kyoto with my bessa III and I'm so glad i got rid of my blad.

This is my first overseas trip with the camera and it's just so cool to have a medium format camera of that quality in the bag.

I had the gh1 with the 17mm pancake lens in the bag as well and between the two - well my back thanked me and I didn't have to compromise.

Too often towards the end I would leave the hassy at home. I just could not be bothered - the bessa - I can take anywhere.

I find "resolution' a hard thing to measure -but I compare them side by side and I have to say - I prefer the character of the Bessa.

I was really worried by the step from 2.8 to 3.5

I should not have worried - the AWESOME shutter mechanism in the BESSA means that you can handhold at shutter speeds far lower than the BLAD.

At the end of the day, i'm about taking photos and the Bessa means tht I'm shooting more MF than ever and that is a good thing

Oh and something I really appreciated today - Loading film on the bessa is a joy (something I did a great deal today!)

In fact I love it so much I bought the Fuji version here yesterday
so I have a spare!

Ed

 

[Ernst Dinkla]

No wonder, as it is essentially the same thing. That lens, called "Heliar" for marketing reasons, is no Heliar but a Planar type.

The best guess I have seen was Plasmat type. The publications mentioned 6 elements - 4 groups. Fuji already had several Plasmat MF lens designs in the past so that guess isn't so wild. Excellent lenses.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

www.pigment-print.com

 

[Jamie123]

I just spent eight hours walking around Kyoto with my bessa III and I'm so glad i got rid of my blad.

This is my first overseas trip with the camera and it's just so cool to have a medium format camera of that quality in the bag.

I had the gh1 with the 17mm pancake lens in the bag as well and between the two - well my back thanked me and I didn't have to compromise.

Too often towards the end I would leave the hassy at home. I just could not be bothered - the bessa - I can take anywhere.

I find "resolution' a hard thing to measure -but I compare them side by side and I have to say - I prefer the character of the Bessa.

I was really worried by the step from 2.8 to 3.5

I should not have worried - the AWESOME shutter mechanism in the BESSA means that you can handhold at shutter speeds far lower than the BLAD.

At the end of the day, i'm about taking photos and the Bessa means tht I'm shooting more MF than ever and that is a good thing

Oh and something I really appreciated today - Loading film on the bessa is a joy (something I did a great deal today!)

In fact I love it so much I bought the Fuji version here yesterday
so I have a spare!

Ed

Great to hear your experiences as the things you mention are exactly the reasons why I'm switching from the Hasselblad to the Bessa. Just like you I was/am leaving the Hasselblad at home more and more often and would never take it on a trip.
I reckon I'll not only take the Bessa III with me more often, I will also use it in situations where I would never take a Hasselblad.

The shutter is really extraordinary. I shot a roll through the camera at the store and the way I see it I can realistically see myself going down to 1/8th handheld with this camera. With the Hasselblad 1/30th is already pushing it.

As a side question, did the Bessa come with a leather case? I couldn't find it mentioned anywhere on the internet. The Voigtländer page implys that it's not included but I couldn't find information on pricing or availability anywhere.

 

[Krosya]

I find this interesting claim that Heliar is better than Hassy's Planar. I have never used this new Bessa 667, but from a few pics I have seen, they dont seem to have that "WOW" effect I see from planar time and time again. I looked at flickr's Bessa 667 pool and pics there dont show anything special. So, maybe some lucky people that own Bessa 667 could post some pics to show why/how Heliar betters Planar. However I do agree that having a folder is far more convinient than a Hassy when traveling/walking around I am a big fan of folders too and had high hopes for this camera, but there doesnt seem to be many pics from it on the net. BTW, does Bessa work without batteries? So, please post pics from your Bessa.

 

[Steve M.]

It's more about how the lens images than resolution. I would think your Hassy would do better. Why not spend a LOT less money and get a Bessa II? I've looked at the photos from the new camera, and compared to my old one it's really no contest. The new camera is sharp, but boring. The old Heliar has an honest to goodness 3-D effect and just generally images better. It's not that it images better than the new camera, it's that it images better than any lens I've ever seen.

You'll have to hand meter and live w/ the 6x9 ratio (or just crop to whatever you want), but seriously, the new one isn't as good as the old one. No surprise really. The build quality of the Bessa II is in a class of it's own as well. Out of all the cameras I own that have good glass, which includes a Rolleiflex Xenotar, a Leiica 50 Summicron, and Isolette Solinar, the 105 Heliar is the best.

I've posted this one before, but the portrait of my camera-collecting friend Donald is a good example. It was shot pretty close to wide open. If you go to flickr and browse photos of Steve M.1, or just look at Bessa II shots, you'll see some others I've posted from the 105 Heliar.

 

[Krosya]

Wow, I do like old Heliar of your Bessa II better than ones from 667! Very nice how lens draws!

 

[Jamie123]

I don't think you really can compare the Bessa II with the Bessa III. The III is modern camera with AE, an incredibly bright viewfinder, a real film counter and you can switch between 6x6 and 6x7.
The Bessa II looks like a neat little camera but I've seen it go for around $1000 which IMO is just insane. As good as the lens may be I wouldn't pay more than $50 for an old folder. It might be a lot cheaper than the III but still 20x more than I'd want to pay.

I really have no nostalgia when it comes to cameras and I prefer modern equipment. For me it's not a choice between the Bessa II and the III but rather one between the Mamiya 7II and the Bessa III. The Mamiya lenses are too sharp and cold for my taste while the Bessa III is a more similar to the Hasselblad lenses. If the Mamiya 7II + 80mm lens were half the price of the Bessa I'd probably go for it but as I see it the difference is about $600 and the advantage with the Bessa is that I won't be tempted to expand the system 🙂

 

[Way]

I do like how my old Agfa Isolette folder's Solinar lens draws. There's a richness about the image that I like and the OOF areas are very nice. The Isolette still is one of my favorite folders to shoot with.

 

[Tom A]

Just came back from three hours of wandering around at the local Concour D'Elegance in Gastown here in Vancouver. It is an annual event - lots of nice cars (67 Muira, V12 Lagonda and a very understated Mercury Turnpike Cruiser in black/pink and gold - about 20 feet long!). Took the Bessa III and a M2 with a Planar 50f2 and a pocket full of TriX (120/35). Lightweight kit and as the weather was grey and gloomy - the Bessa was mostly @ f3.5-4 and 1/30 to 1/60. Shot 3 rolls with that and 3 rolls with the M2. Will see if I can soup them today. The rangefinder in the Bessa is outstanding and the fact that you can trigger it with virtually no shake made it possible to shoot at 1/15 occasionally for some extended DOF shots (Packard Hood ornament - the famous dougnut pusher).

 

[Way]

Here's a few cars being unloaded for the Monterey/Carmel Concour D'Elegance using the Bessa III.

 

[Tom A]

There is something about vintage cars and Bessa III's obviously. The details and tones from a larger negative size - and the fact that the owners are quite taken by the "old" folder (except the ones who ask "Is it Digital?").

 

[ChrisLivsey]

Here's a few cars being unloaded for the Monterey/Carmel Concour D'Elegance using the Bessa III.

Can I ask, and I'm sorry I don't know the model, in the last B/W shot what is the T shaped "device" on the RHS.
Apologies for off topic but curiosity overcomes me.

 

[Turtle]

web sized imaged will tell you little to nothing about resolution, so there is no point looking at Flikr....

While it is possible that the new Bessa III Heliar is sharper than the Hassy planar, this would be a surprise as the Hassy lens is held perfectly in alignment, whereas the Bessa will have more of a tolerance involved (it may therefore be that there is some variance between specific examples). This can make a huge difference to real on film resolution. ...ask Roger Hick's about his Alpas and the same lenses on 5x4 folders and how much better they resolve on the Alpas

In my use of 5x4, 5x7 and 10x8 I am confident that it is very, very hard to get the best out of shorter FLs on folding cameras as alignment is hard to get perfect to the miniscule tolerances required for optimal resolution. Mike Walker of Walker cameras will tell you the same thing. so will ebony, hence the limited movement on some of their models and shorter belloes to prevent bellows compression distorting the parallels (easing movement too).

I am sure the Bessa 3 is well made, but is is about convenience, not raw cutting edge performance. In the new camera, tolerances may be very good (though I would still wonder if the lens is aplced as accurately each time in relation to the film as it is with a rigid camera. once it wears things become less certain.

Look at the tests on the Plaubel by Perez (on Hevanet) and co. It does OK, but not great, with the likely explanation not being the Nikkor lens, but placement and wear/tear. The folders are convenient and we should not be too concerned about outright resolutin. If you are, get a Mamiya 7. I have one, but find how I use it somewhat more important. Still, not a camera for taking portraits of your mother...

 

[Jamie123]

Do you mean alignment of the lens elements or alignment with the film plane?

I actually saw a discussion a while ago about the Bessa's front element not being parallel to the film plane in the product shots on the Voigtländer page (http://tinyurl.com/kmv3xr). Can anyone who has the camera comment on whether this is the case on the actual camera?