Heliar resolution compared to...

[Larry Manuel]

While I think the Bessa III is a very, very nice camera, and would love to try one, I ask the following rhetorical question: If there had been Bessa IIIs around for the past 40 years, in the tens of thousands, and all of a sudden the mechanical Hasselblad came out, wouldn't we be reading of people falling over themselves to dump the now obviously inferior <sic> Bessa III and buy one or more [for spares] Hasselblads?

Abstracting this, there is a hypothesis that the order of inventions determines their [current] popularity. Apologies, I cannot provide references to this.

 

[Jamie123]

While I think the Bessa III is a very, very nice camera, and would love to try one, I ask the following rhetorical question: If there had been Bessa IIIs around for the past 40 years, in the tens of thousands, and all of a sudden the mechanical Hasselblad came out, wouldn't we be reading of people falling over themselves to dump the now obviously inferior <sic> Bessa III and buy one or more [for spares] Hasselblads?

Abstracting this, there is a hypothesis that the order of inventions determines their [current] popularity. Apologies, I cannot provide references to this.

I don't think this is the case here at all. While many people would probably agree that the Bessa III is a very nice camera, much less people actually think it's worth its price and very few people would replace their whole Hasselblad system with it (like I am doing). Besides, the Bessa III is not really a novelty.
I would actually still say that the Hasselblad *as a system* is superior to the Bessa. However, the best camera in the world is useless if it stays at home.
The Hasselblad for me is a bit like having a kid around. It needs constant attention, is loud, not always appropriate to take with and gets on my nerves when I'm on vacation with my girlfriend.

(I'm kidding, obviously, and I don't have a kid so please don't call child services 😀 )

 

[Don Hutton]

web sized imaged will tell you little to nothing about resolution, so there is no point looking at Flikr....

While it is possible that the new Bessa III Heliar is sharper than the Hassy planar, this would be a surprise as the Hassy lens is held perfectly in alignment, whereas the Bessa will have more of a tolerance involved (it may therefore be that there is some variance between specific examples). This can make a huge difference to real on film resolution. ...ask Roger Hick's about his Alpas and the same lenses on 5x4 folders and how much better they resolve on the Alpas

In my use of 5x4, 5x7 and 10x8 I am confident that it is very, very hard to get the best out of shorter FLs on folding cameras as alignment is hard to get perfect to the miniscule tolerances required for optimal resolution. Mike Walker of Walker cameras will tell you the same thing. so will ebony, hence the limited movement on some of their models and shorter belloes to prevent bellows compression distorting the parallels (easing movement too).

I am sure the Bessa 3 is well made, but is is about convenience, not raw cutting edge performance. In the new camera, tolerances may be very good (though I would still wonder if the lens is aplced as accurately each time in relation to the film as it is with a rigid camera. once it wears things become less certain.

Look at the tests on the Plaubel by Perez (on Hevanet) and co. It does OK, but not great, with the likely explanation not being the Nikkor lens, but placement and wear/tear. The folders are convenient and we should not be too concerned about outright resolutin. If you are, get a Mamiya 7. I have one, but find how I use it somewhat more important. Still, not a camera for taking portraits of your mother...

Well, get surprised - my Fuji GF670 tests even better than the 80mm lens on my Mamiya 7 - and any other MF optics I have ever tested. First tests revealed about 92 lp/mm on center (using high resolution film - I frankly have never been able to get numbers as high as others claim on Tmax100). It's an amazing optic on a great camera, but if folks do their shopping by judging Flikr photos, surely they'd be better off with an iPhone anyway?...

 

[Tom A]

Bessa III with HP5 )old film stock) developed in Rodinal 1:50/13 min. Focus is on the MG logo on the radiator. Probably at f5.6 and 1/30.

 

[Tom A]

Bessa III @ f3.5 - focus is on the Packard radiator figure. Some designer probably had some lofty ideas about it - but it got quickly renamed "The Donut Pusher".
It was a gloomy day so speed was probably around 1/60. I was letting the camera do the decision with the AE system. Old stock Tri X, rated 320 and developed in Rodinal 1:50/13 min.

 

[Tom A]

HRD Vincent V twin. The Bessa III at f4 - focus on the HRD symbol on the crank case. Old HP5, Rodinal 1:50 for 13 min. Again - the camera handled the exposure through the AE system.

 

[Krosya]

Well, get surprised - my Fuji GF670 tests even better than the 80mm lens on my Mamiya 7 - and any other MF optics I have ever tested. First tests revealed about 92 lp/mm on center (using high resolution film - I frankly have never been able to get numbers as high as others claim on Tmax100). It's an amazing optic on a great camera, but if folks do their shopping by judging Flikr photos, surely they'd be better off with an iPhone anyway?...

And what does GF 670 have to do with a folder Bessa 667? And while flickr photos may not show resolution of any given lens - they show other things, like character and bokeh. I find that very helpful as to me those things are more important than resolution - I dont shoot charts. 😉

Oh and BTW - Tom A - nice photos - finally I see some good stuff from Bessa III! Thanks.

 

[Don Hutton]

And what does GF 670 have to do with a folder Bessa 667? And while flickr photos may not show resolution of any given lens - they show other things, like character and bokeh. I find that very helpful as to me those things are more important than resolution - I dont shoot charts. 😉

Quite as lot actually - it's an identical camera, simply rebadged for the Japanese market - sorry I didn't mention that; I thought most people posting in this thread knew.... My comments regarding resolution comparisons were in response to a direct question about it in an earlier thread which I quoted - it had nothing to do with bokeh and other lens charateristics, just resolution which is why I mentioned it. Believe it or not, I do realize that there are a host of other issues which affect the final image, but I mentioned the numbers in a test as very few folks here who post a lot about the camera (like how it's too expensive, poorly made and could never equal a Mamiya 7 for resolution) actually have ever used one or tested one. I'm fortunate to have done both and shared my opinion to dispell some of the nonsense which seems to sprout forth about this camera all the time from people with simply zero knowledge or experience.

 

[aizan]

The new camera is sharp, but boring.

reading between the lines, it sounds like what i'm looking for.

wasn't someone doing a gf670 vs. mamiya 7 test?

 

[Tom A]

I find the Bessa III quite remarkable. The AE system is about as good as it gets and the lens is sharp, very sharp and with nice smooth rendition.
I used to work with Hasselblads for years - had it all and now has the back to prove it! The Bessa has re-ignited my interest in medium format and by not having options in regards to the lens - I am better off.
So far I havent found anything to complain about - it is a superb piece of workmanship - and those who "complain" about quality obviously has not used or even held one!
Each time I use it I am amazed how comfortable it is to hold and focus and then to top it off - how quiet it is. Of course after a decade of using only 35mm - looking at a 6x6 or 6x7 negative is something else.
Interesting reaction from subjects too "Oh, is that from the 50's" to "Is it digital?".

 

[Turtle]

Don,

Just to clarify, I said that folders can have lens placement issues due to wear, damage, or tolerance issues that can affect resolution. This issue tends not to be present with fixed body cameras, and so while folders can of course provide exceptional performance, there is more potential for them not doing so. This is well documented and well understood, but of course does not mean that an individual folder, or many for that matter, will not perform exceptionally well.

Your single example vs your single Mamiya 7 is just one sample from many. We will have to see what the broader consensus and tests results are to have an idea what the average Bessa3 delivers. Maybe it will be spectacular now. Maybe spectacular after 20 years or maybe not. We don't know, although I am sure during design they were subjected to various ordeals. What is well known is that the tolerances required to milk the very highest resolution out of lenses, esp at wider apertures on shorter lenses, tend to be extremely small. Lens placement is only one factor of course and film placement another.

As for saying that the Mamiya 7 is the highest resolving outfit out there bar none, that was not my intention. Perhaps I should have said that it is broadly recognised, on average, as being the industry leader for a set of MF optics in terms of raw resolving power. I have used a lot of lenses and have personally found nothing to outperform them (not even 35mm primes), but thats just my experience. Yours may be different.

FWIW, Perez (http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/MF_testing.html) out the Mamiya 7 80mm at 120 on centre and the 50 at 107, which was comfortably (but not necessarily real world meaningfully) higher than anything else. The Mamiya 6's 75 came in at 95. Now he did not have a Bessa 3 of course as this was 2004; however, I would be surprised if the Bessa 3 were to outperform these figures (I am not saying they cannot) due to the moving components that mechanically locate and are subject therefore to tolerances. Possible, sure, but it would seem less likely with all things being equal if the Mamiya 7 lenses were performing up to spec.

My original point was to suggest that ditching a Hassy for a Bessa 3 on the basis of optical performance would be rather silly, largely bec they are very different cameras and because performance variances at this level are immaterial. I bought the Mamiya 7 for its large neg and RF and would have still bought it had the optics performed slightly less well.

FWIW the Bessa 3 did appeal to me apart from its FL. Were it a 65mm, the FL I use most on the Mamiya 7, I would have considered it. The folding aspect did not put me off as I am not concerned about whether I get 80lpmm or 120 from a 6x7 neg. It just does not matter.

 

[Tom A]

Can I ask, and I'm sorry I don't know the model, in the last B/W shot what is the T shaped "device" on the RHS.
Apologies for off topic but curiosity overcomes me.

Chris, the T-shaped device is a license plate holder.

 

[Tom A]

The Bessa III has a very sturdy folding mechanism, but it would obviously not be as strong as a "fixed" lens mount. There is an inter-lock on the III that prevents you from firing it if the bellow/lens is not locked in straight.
I had the Mamiya 6 but managed to slam the lens against a car-door and busted the "telescoping" lens-mount. Lens survived, but it was rather pricey to get fixed.
The Mamiya 7 is interesting, but way to big for my taste. I dont use these cameras commercially any more and dont ned the "full" complement of lenses. The Bessa III suits me - I can go along in the bag, together with my M's without being an extra burden. The 2 lbs weight is not that much more than a M with a 50 or 35 lens. So, I cut one m-body out and use the III instead.
I would love to see a couple of add'l Bessas - a wide 40's mm focal length and a 6x9 with a 105 Apo Lanthar - same optical quality as the III and same metering system. This does not mean that I would desert the M-system - but it would nicely complement it.

 

[Leigh Youdale]

Can I ask, and I'm sorry I don't know the model, in the last B/W shot what is the T shaped "device" on the RHS.
Apologies for off topic but curiosity overcomes me.

I think you'll find it's a bracket to hold the number plate - probably has a light in it as well to illuminate the plate at night.

 

[fbf]

Tom, love the car collections !

As far as I can see, the lens is very sharp. It does what folders do best plus the modern finish, modern lens coating which I believe are the selling points.

 

[ChrisLivsey]

Chris, the T-shaped device is a license plate holder.

Thanks Tom, of course I see it now.

Addendum; and to Leigh, now I feel a bit silly it is so obvious but just not a UK design. We go for a bit of bent metal nothing fancy.

 

[Ernst Dinkla]

There is something about vintage cars and Bessa III's obviously. The details and tones from a larger negative size - and the fact that the owners are quite taken by the "old" folder (except the ones who ask "Is it Digital?").

It is true, there was affection between the Iskra and the Delahaye-Pennock that I couldn't get between the 5D MK II and the Scott.


Ernst Dinkla

 

[Way]

The Bessa is sharp but also has a quality about it, though still very modern. The wine bottles shot below has a wonderful richness that I like. The cars were shot in mid day sun. All were HP5.

 

[Tom A]

It is true, there was affection between the Iskra and the Delahaye-Pennock that I couldn't get between the 5D MK II and the Scott.


Ernst Dinkla

I love the Scott - now try to get that one through a "safety" test for a manufacturer! The Delahaye is of course gorgeous - most of them were.
Is the Iskra shot at "Musee De La Automobile" in Mulhouse"? The roof supports and the crushed marble looks familiar.

 

[Tom A]

Tom, love the car collections !

As far as I can see, the lens is very sharp. It does what folders do best plus the modern finish, modern lens coating which I believe are the selling points.

Thanks, there are more shots from this event and also other cars on our Flickr, done with the Bessa III. Click on the Bessa III set to get to them.