Soapy Kittens
Young Professional
Hello, everyone,
I've been one of those curious lurkers for a few weeks, so it's nice to throw my hat in the ring. I'll start with a long post. I am no professional...so...I've got some questions for the more experienced regarding my next camera choice. I've been whetting my appetite on the GIII QL17, but it's a bit limiting, having the fixed lens. I need to expand! Some conditions:
1. I read that whole weichel thread and it's awesome and I want his camera--BUT--I can only justify $300 total on my credit card and even that is pretty high.
2. I want a good selection of low to upper-mid priced lenses. From what I've read, some FSU LTM lenses are good with my price restriction and maybe someday I can afford something really nice; the body needs to be ok with that.
3. All manual is fine; I should just learn everything. Though I would really prefer having a meter and maybe an aperture-priority option and flash-sync/hot shoe. A bright built-in viewfinder would be very helpful.
4. Solid mechanics
What I've looked at:
1. Bessa L - Price is right, but I'm not sure about the lack of built-in viewfinder, plus this isn't really a rangefinder, right? It looks ok, I just wonder about not being able to focus. I like wideangle, just don't want to be restricted to it. Is there something else similar to this around the same price, by the way?
2. Bessa R - Decent price, everything seems up my alley, but I've read so much about the quality control issues - misaligned rangefinders, etc.- that I wonder if it's better to go with something a little older. Does this camera lack something I might want?
3. Canon P- This camera looks great, but I can't find one for sale anywhere. What about the 7? Is the lower magnification viewfinder that different?
4. Russians - Kiev 4(x), Zorki 6, Fed 2- Price is great, but at what cost? I just don't trust the QC on these; they don't seem like cameras I can feel safe and serious with, you know? I'm afraid these might be too cheap, odd as that sounds.
5. Nikon S3/Hexar RF/R2/3A- I could buy a small car instead.
So, am I forgetting any amazing cameras? Should I hold out for a P or am I unfairly dismissing the R? Other related recommendations?
More questions to follow...nice to meet you all.
Thanks, Ben.
I've been one of those curious lurkers for a few weeks, so it's nice to throw my hat in the ring. I'll start with a long post. I am no professional...so...I've got some questions for the more experienced regarding my next camera choice. I've been whetting my appetite on the GIII QL17, but it's a bit limiting, having the fixed lens. I need to expand! Some conditions:
1. I read that whole weichel thread and it's awesome and I want his camera--BUT--I can only justify $300 total on my credit card and even that is pretty high.
2. I want a good selection of low to upper-mid priced lenses. From what I've read, some FSU LTM lenses are good with my price restriction and maybe someday I can afford something really nice; the body needs to be ok with that.
3. All manual is fine; I should just learn everything. Though I would really prefer having a meter and maybe an aperture-priority option and flash-sync/hot shoe. A bright built-in viewfinder would be very helpful.
4. Solid mechanics
What I've looked at:
1. Bessa L - Price is right, but I'm not sure about the lack of built-in viewfinder, plus this isn't really a rangefinder, right? It looks ok, I just wonder about not being able to focus. I like wideangle, just don't want to be restricted to it. Is there something else similar to this around the same price, by the way?
2. Bessa R - Decent price, everything seems up my alley, but I've read so much about the quality control issues - misaligned rangefinders, etc.- that I wonder if it's better to go with something a little older. Does this camera lack something I might want?
3. Canon P- This camera looks great, but I can't find one for sale anywhere. What about the 7? Is the lower magnification viewfinder that different?
4. Russians - Kiev 4(x), Zorki 6, Fed 2- Price is great, but at what cost? I just don't trust the QC on these; they don't seem like cameras I can feel safe and serious with, you know? I'm afraid these might be too cheap, odd as that sounds.
5. Nikon S3/Hexar RF/R2/3A- I could buy a small car instead.
So, am I forgetting any amazing cameras? Should I hold out for a P or am I unfairly dismissing the R? Other related recommendations?
More questions to follow...nice to meet you all.
Thanks, Ben.
W
wlewisiii
Guest
Soapy Kittens said:
Hello and welcome,
I'm one of the local Kiev-aholics so I'll start with recomending one. The thing to remember about the Kiev is that it is a German camera that happened to be made in the FSU. Even with sometimes iffy QC, the design was so good that it still managed to hang in there for 50 years. The lenses are based on good Zeiss designs and tend to be easier to find in good condition because the mount is physically simpler. Plus the real deal, Zeiss lenses for the Contax RF mount, are vastly undervalued and mount just fine on a Kiev body.
Good info can be found here: http://www.cameraquest.com/classics.htm in the Contax and Kiev pages.
I always recommend either http://www.fedka.com/catalog or http://www.okvintagecamera.com/index.html for buying FSU cameras. Both know what they're about and give good service. A Kiev 4am with a Jupiter 8m lens would be an excellent way to start.
William
If you want something older, the Canon 7 is probably the best buy going. Selectable framelines, viewfinder is better than a Nikon S3, very well made. The Selenium meters usually still work if the camera was left in a case; but not a big loss if it is out. The biggest deficiency is the lack of an accessory shoe. If you shoot with flash, you will have to get a bracket mount that screws into the tripod socket.
If you can get a user Canon P, it is well worth looking at. The prices tend to be higher than the Canon 7. The Viewfinder uses "bright Lines (painted on) rather than projected lines (beamsplitter overlays them). The Canon 7 has selectable framelines that are auto-parallax corrected, ie they shift as you focus.
New Cameras: Bessa R at Cameraquest.com is impossible to beat. Buy it with a warranty if you have any doubt about RF alignment, etc. It has been around for a while, and the "kinks" have been worked out.
If you can get a user Canon P, it is well worth looking at. The prices tend to be higher than the Canon 7. The Viewfinder uses "bright Lines (painted on) rather than projected lines (beamsplitter overlays them). The Canon 7 has selectable framelines that are auto-parallax corrected, ie they shift as you focus.
New Cameras: Bessa R at Cameraquest.com is impossible to beat. Buy it with a warranty if you have any doubt about RF alignment, etc. It has been around for a while, and the "kinks" have been worked out.
back alley
IMAGES
i have to agree wtih brian.
canon 7 is a tank and will likely last forever.
bessa r is a great camera and w/ the 35/2.5 deal at cameraquest, it's hard to beat.
no news here but most of the people who knock the bessa r probably have never used one.
and welcome to the forum.
joe
canon 7 is a tank and will likely last forever.
bessa r is a great camera and w/ the 35/2.5 deal at cameraquest, it's hard to beat.
no news here but most of the people who knock the bessa r probably have never used one.
and welcome to the forum.
joe
Huck Finn
Well-known
Ben, given that you already have a fast 40mm lens on your Canonet, in what direction do you want to expand? Wider or longer?
You are being unfair dismissing the R. It is a great little camera, nothing more can be said. I would suggest that you go back and look at the dates of all the threads complaining about rangefinder misalignment. I was quite concerned myself, then I realized all the sour grapes were all referring to a friend of a friend of a friend who heard about a problem, and they were all stories at least 18 months prior to when I was shopping in late 2002. There probably was a problem with a shipment of cameras that came into the US, but if so, that was a while ago. The deal with the 35/2.5 at CQ is the best bang for your buck. Add a Jupiter 8 for $30 or so and you will be covered for most of your shooting.
There are a lot of FSU fans here. I enjoy my Keiv, but wouldn't count on it as my only or main camera. I think your concerns about the QC of these cameras are well founded, but you can get some real winners in this group too. Part of my enjoyment of my Kiev is that it is different, a nice change of pace. Hey, it is like a decent knuckleballer. Good to have on the team to mix things up, but you don't want a whole staff of them.
And, as Brian says, used Canons are good buys. With some shopping you should be able to find a P or 7 with 50/1.5 close to, and maybe with a very good deal below, your budget.
There are a lot of FSU fans here. I enjoy my Keiv, but wouldn't count on it as my only or main camera. I think your concerns about the QC of these cameras are well founded, but you can get some real winners in this group too. Part of my enjoyment of my Kiev is that it is different, a nice change of pace. Hey, it is like a decent knuckleballer. Good to have on the team to mix things up, but you don't want a whole staff of them.
And, as Brian says, used Canons are good buys. With some shopping you should be able to find a P or 7 with 50/1.5 close to, and maybe with a very good deal below, your budget.
Soapy Kittens
Young Professional
Hey, thanks for the responses! A couple things:
1. I'd like to be able to expand wider first; I just want to have flexibility in the long run with any camera. My last camera was a great, cheap little SLR(Minolta X700) but it locked me into certain lenses before I dropped it. I'm looking for range.
2. Hey, that reminds me, would I rather drop a 7/P or an R? I think the Russians are probably out except as a secondary concern. I'm not fundamentally opposed to them, I swear. In fact, I speak Russian, so there's even more incentive, but nevertheless...
3. Is that 35/2.5 good enough to justify hitting $425 or would I be better served to just do the body and the cheaper Jupiter 8? How much of a difference do you notice between the two?
4. Does anyone have one of these for sale?
5. Other suggestions still very welcome.
Thanks again!
Ben
1. I'd like to be able to expand wider first; I just want to have flexibility in the long run with any camera. My last camera was a great, cheap little SLR(Minolta X700) but it locked me into certain lenses before I dropped it. I'm looking for range.
2. Hey, that reminds me, would I rather drop a 7/P or an R? I think the Russians are probably out except as a secondary concern. I'm not fundamentally opposed to them, I swear. In fact, I speak Russian, so there's even more incentive, but nevertheless...
3. Is that 35/2.5 good enough to justify hitting $425 or would I be better served to just do the body and the cheaper Jupiter 8? How much of a difference do you notice between the two?
4. Does anyone have one of these for sale?
5. Other suggestions still very welcome.
Thanks again!
Ben
back alley
IMAGES
that's 425 for both lens & body. it's a great, small and sharp lens.
the jupiter is a good lens as long as you get a good one. the cv lens is new, has modern coatings and a warranty.
of course a 7 with a canon 50/1.8 is a great choice too or even the canon 35/2.8 lens.
joe
the jupiter is a good lens as long as you get a good one. the cv lens is new, has modern coatings and a warranty.
of course a 7 with a canon 50/1.8 is a great choice too or even the canon 35/2.8 lens.
joe
sockeyed
Well-known
I love my Kiev, I love my Fed and my Zorki. I love my Canonet. But when I'm heading out the door, there's a darn good chance that I'll be reaching for my Bessa R. It's just such a fun camera to use, with its TTL metering and bright viewfinder.
I would shell out the $425 and get the 35/2.5 lens with it because it's an amazing piece of glass. I've used Canon FD lenses for years (which people will confirm are darn good) but my first pictures from the CV 35 made my jaw drop. Add a Jupiter 8 for 30 bux (chances are, it will come with a Zorki 4/4k attached) and you're good to go.
I would shell out the $425 and get the 35/2.5 lens with it because it's an amazing piece of glass. I've used Canon FD lenses for years (which people will confirm are darn good) but my first pictures from the CV 35 made my jaw drop. Add a Jupiter 8 for 30 bux (chances are, it will come with a Zorki 4/4k attached) and you're good to go.
Soapy Kittens said:
Is it going to land on your foot or the concrete?
W
wlewisiii
Guest
Though I do grab my Kiev everytime I'm out the door, I agree that I'm a bit "touched" about them.
The R with the 35/2.5 is a great deal. I have that lens in it's Contax mount version and I can not imagine not having it now. The first shots amazed me and all of the shots with it since have continued to do so. It's well worth even more money than CV is charging for it.
Look at it like this - for $425 you can get a brand new camera with all the modern convienances and a really wonderful lens plus a warranty. That may be more than you were originally hoping to spend, but if you can afford it then it's hard to imagine a better value for that little money.
William
The R with the 35/2.5 is a great deal. I have that lens in it's Contax mount version and I can not imagine not having it now. The first shots amazed me and all of the shots with it since have continued to do so. It's well worth even more money than CV is charging for it.
Look at it like this - for $425 you can get a brand new camera with all the modern convienances and a really wonderful lens plus a warranty. That may be more than you were originally hoping to spend, but if you can afford it then it's hard to imagine a better value for that little money.
William
FrankS
Registered User
If you just want to have a good camera/lens, then buy the CV combo. (BTW, you can't mount a Russian 35mm lens on the Bessa.) Then as others have suggested, spend $30 for a 50mm J8 lens, maybe with a Russian camera attached. Later on buy the CV25mm lens if you want wider, or add the 75mm CV lens if you want longer. Get both eventually. This is a great system. I can't see how you could do better, unless you enjoy spending hours a day for months searching on ebay and putting up with last minute sniping and maybe a scam here and there. Eventually, you MAY be able to do better if you are knowledgable and know a lot about cameras and know what you're doing. Otherwise, my advice is to buy the Bessa R/35mm lens combo. If you can't spend $425 for the black body, spend $399 on the chrome.
Warren T.
Well-known
Here's how I ended up with the Bessa R and CV 35mm f2.5. I got 3 FSU cameras, all with 50mm lenses (1 J-8), and they re-energized my enthusiasm for RF cameras. While I like my FSU bodies, I really wanted a reliable, modern, and affordable RF that will also take the J-8 (superb lens).
I was about to order the $425 R+35mm lens deal when I spotted a nice Bessa R with 35mm f2.5 on E-Prey and won the auction. I couldn't be happier.
The rangefinder on my R seems perfectly aligned. I love the short throw of the film advance lever, the ultra bright and clear VF, the R's compact size with the 35mm lens, and the reassuringly solid feel of the metal, copal shutter.
Regards,
Warren
I was about to order the $425 R+35mm lens deal when I spotted a nice Bessa R with 35mm f2.5 on E-Prey and won the auction. I couldn't be happier.
The rangefinder on my R seems perfectly aligned. I love the short throw of the film advance lever, the ultra bright and clear VF, the R's compact size with the 35mm lens, and the reassuringly solid feel of the metal, copal shutter.
Regards,
Warren
surlysimon
Established
go for the R and when you can afford it find a canon serena 50 1.8 which are cheap and so so sharp. i got a bessa R body and used a FSU 50 first off then got a 50 Serena for AUS$150 and took it to japan where it got a solid work out. the results are stunning. now i have a CV ultron 35 as well and the Bessa is my choice for most days.
MCTuomey
Veteran
I was in a similar quandary awhile ago, wanting to get an interchangeable lens RF and coming from the land of EOS (Elan and 3). Budget of about $400 or so. Ordered the Bessa R + 2.5/35 package deal from CQ. Right out of the box - misaligned frame lines. Felt pretty bad, but Mr Gandy took it back without any question at all, giving me my choice of money back, exchange, credit for anything else, whatever I wanted to do. I have to say I loved the little Bessa the second I had it in my hands. It just felt great with the 2.5/3.5, focusing very quick with its bright VF. If it weren't for the lucky fact that I happened into a bit more cash and opted for the R2A from CQ, I would have straightaway ordered another R. I may well just do so anyway ...
I suggest the Bessa R because it's new, warranted, and is just a fabulous deal at the package price. Everyone loves the 2.5/35 as well. Truthfully, I can't imagine how anyone could dislike the R.
I suggest the Bessa R because it's new, warranted, and is just a fabulous deal at the package price. Everyone loves the 2.5/35 as well. Truthfully, I can't imagine how anyone could dislike the R.
R
Roman
Guest
...and another vote for the Bessa R / 35/2.5 combo - I already had a quite extensive collection of 1970s fixed-lens RFs, and Russian LTM- and Kiev-mount RFs, and while I like them within their limitations, those limitations can be quite, well, limiting some times - no exchangeable lenses on the ones, dim finders without framelines, and severe parallax issues with tele lenses at portrait distances on the others. Esp. the second problem finally made me get the Bessa R comob, and it felt immediately right! I have been taking so much more pictures since I got it (and I vainly think, so much more keepers among those), I really love that camera, only thing I don'T like: it's too loud for candids, but hey, you can't have everything for that price.
Roman
Roman
For the "dropped Camera" Award: The Canonator. Joe has it now. Took a hit so hard that the solid glass prism for the framelines sheared off near the base. Took me a long time to get the glass shards out and rebuild it. Glued the prism back together; it had sheared off near the base to did not interfere with the frameline projection.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19264&highlight=canonator#post19264
Framelines work well after putting the prism back together.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/3052/size/big/sort/1/cat/539
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/3050/size/big/sort/1/cat/539
The hard part was getting fragments out of the gears.
The baseplate on the Nikon S2 that is in the following post looked like someone used it to drive nails.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19264&highlight=canonator#post19264
Framelines work well after putting the prism back together.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/3052/size/big/sort/1/cat/539
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/3050/size/big/sort/1/cat/539
The hard part was getting fragments out of the gears.
The baseplate on the Nikon S2 that is in the following post looked like someone used it to drive nails.
Huck Finn
Well-known
I'm going to suggest that you go in another direction. Re-visit your interest in the Bessa L. Light travels through the lens to the film to make a picture. The camera is just a light-tight box to hold the film & to put a shutter in front of it. You can afford the L with a 25/4 Color Skopar for $314, which is about as close to your budget as you will get for something new. Together with the Canonet you will have a very versatile pair with lenses of 40 & 25 mm AND you will be able to explore your interest in going wider.
You expressed 2 concerns about the L - lack of a built-in viewfinder & the fact that it isn't a rangefinder. Regarding the viewfinder, you'll need an external viewfinder for a lens wider than 35 or 40 mm on any Bessa series camera. Regarding a rangefinder, wide angle lenses have great depth of field & are easy to focus. The practice of focusing by using the distance scale on the lens will make you a better photgrapher in the long run & you'll find that you'll get some very interesting shots with the 25/4 immediately. A rangefinder is nice to have but even without it you'll have one of the big advantages of a rangefinder camera, which is the way that lenses can be designed for them without having to work around the mirror built into an SLR. The Bessa L gives you this same advantage of access to superior wide angle lens designs.
You will eventually move on to a different body, but you will always have that lens & the viewfinder that comes with it for the same price. You can use them on any camera that you eventually buy. The Bessa R + 35/2.5 is a great buy, but it seems redundant to me given that you already have a camera with 40/1.7. This new camera/lens combination just won't be all that different from what you already have - AND you'll be out $400 that you can't afford. In my opinion, you'd be better off saving your money. You may be better off saving your money anyway, given your tight budget & have the freedom to take lots of pictures without worrying that you can't afford film, or that you can't afford to make enlargements of your favorite photos, or that you can't afford a frame. Some of the world's great photographers have worked exclusively with one lens - usually in the 35 - 50 range, right where your Canonet sits. Remember that the Canonet is a great little camera in its own right.
I think that your other alternative is to prowl for used equipment. There are a lot of great suggestions on this thread for equipment to select from.
Good luck.
You expressed 2 concerns about the L - lack of a built-in viewfinder & the fact that it isn't a rangefinder. Regarding the viewfinder, you'll need an external viewfinder for a lens wider than 35 or 40 mm on any Bessa series camera. Regarding a rangefinder, wide angle lenses have great depth of field & are easy to focus. The practice of focusing by using the distance scale on the lens will make you a better photgrapher in the long run & you'll find that you'll get some very interesting shots with the 25/4 immediately. A rangefinder is nice to have but even without it you'll have one of the big advantages of a rangefinder camera, which is the way that lenses can be designed for them without having to work around the mirror built into an SLR. The Bessa L gives you this same advantage of access to superior wide angle lens designs.
You will eventually move on to a different body, but you will always have that lens & the viewfinder that comes with it for the same price. You can use them on any camera that you eventually buy. The Bessa R + 35/2.5 is a great buy, but it seems redundant to me given that you already have a camera with 40/1.7. This new camera/lens combination just won't be all that different from what you already have - AND you'll be out $400 that you can't afford. In my opinion, you'd be better off saving your money. You may be better off saving your money anyway, given your tight budget & have the freedom to take lots of pictures without worrying that you can't afford film, or that you can't afford to make enlargements of your favorite photos, or that you can't afford a frame. Some of the world's great photographers have worked exclusively with one lens - usually in the 35 - 50 range, right where your Canonet sits. Remember that the Canonet is a great little camera in its own right.
I think that your other alternative is to prowl for used equipment. There are a lot of great suggestions on this thread for equipment to select from.
Good luck.
DaShiv
21st century digital boy
Just as a footnote to Huck Finn's suggestion: the 25/4 isn't rangefinder-coupled anyway, so you don't lose anything from using it with an external finder on a Bessa L. I do agree that the 25 and 40 focal lengths make a pretty good combo -- a very versatile wide and a "true" normal, both focal lengths I use and love on my DSLR Using the 50 focal length exclusively on my rangefinder has forced me to conclude that it is, in fact, a short telephoto.
Huck speaks wisely once again! Indeed, Huck is well worth listening to, as his thoughtful suggestions are particularly well directed toward the needs/wishes of the supplicant/seeker of truth/person who posed the question!