Hello to all , first post , and a question about s-mount c-sonnar

[Vincent]

Hello !
It's been a long time I've been looking , reading and learning from this forum . It's the first time I post on any forum , really a new experience for me . But I've learned so much that I want to learn more and perhaps share some of my own feedbacks on occasion .
I'm french , excuse me for my sometime approximate english .
So ! I have an S-mount C-sonnar that I've only used on film , but I want to use it on my new Monochrom . The obvious choice for me seems to be the Amadeo close focus S to M adapter :
-can you confirm this ?
-what aperture is this lens calibrated for ? Using it only handheld for portraits on a more forgiving film camera ( Nikon S2 ) didn't help me make my own advice . And I never could find anything anywhere about it .
-does this adapter change the calibration ? I personnaly don't think so , as S and M standart lenses are calibrated to the same focal length : if infinity is perfect as it should be with the fine crafted Amadeo adapters , the aperture for wich this lens has been optimized focusing wise shouldn't change .
I know I could have contacted M. Muscelli directly , but he seems to get a lot of feedback from users and is a member here .
I think I will order it anyway : a closer focusing C-Sonnar with a longer throw looks to be a nice toy/tool for my use . But some of your direct experience would of course help me sleep , and limit the tests I would have to do anyway , even if it will be certainly easier with live view .
Thank you all again ,

Vincent

 

[Larry Cloetta]

Hello,

There were only 800 or so of those lenses made, so you have something nice there. I have spoken with Zeiss directly about the focus shift, and was assured that every single one of the S mount C-Sonnars was calibrated at the factory to show no focus shift at f2.8.
Every single one.
I use mine on a Nikon S2 so cannot help you with the question about the adapter, unfortunately.
Good luck!

 

[Vincent]

Thank you Larry Cloetta to report the very clear answer from Zeiss . But after a few more research , I could find a few minutes ago an old thread on RFF :
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=857610#post857610
A poster called fgb2 did the same thing as you and didn't get the same answer , reporting a f/1.5 optimization . I assume it has to do with the fact Zeiss , to my knowledge , never made an official statement . So , depending on the date , the person , the answer is not the same .
I also remember some remarks about the optimization for Nikon or Contax ( from Ron Scherer at Zeisscamera and from the well known Brian Sweeney ) , stating the lens works , if not perfectly , better than an S mount lens on a contax body at f/1.5 ...
All this is quite confusing , so perhaps the real answer is pondered with a mix of sample variation , calibration ( lens and body ) , depth of field and to this point , a grain of self-expectation ...
So let's put the question another way , with my own self-expectation : I would like my S mount C-sonnar to work best at close to mid distance at f/1.5 and good at long distance from f/2.8 :
-is it possible ?
-with a Nikon or Contax Amadeo adapter ?
-with or without shimming ( if it's feasible ) ?
Considering the numbers ( production , users on M , and on RFF ) , I'd be very lucky to get a definitive answer , that of course does not exist because of the nature of the lens . Finally , my main concern is not to buy 2 adapters .
Thank you all again for your attenion and patience .

Vincent

 

[jonmanjiro]

I remember Tom A saying that only about 300 Zeiss Sonnar 50/1.5s were made in S-mount, so its quite a rare lens indeed.

The optical cell of this lens is identical to the M-mount Zeiss Sonnar. Same optics, different barrel. So the nominal focal length for the lenses in both mounts should be the Leica/Nikon S standard of 51.6mm, rather than the Contax standard of 52.3mm.

Focus shift is inherent in the Zeiss Sonnar optical design so all these Zeiss Sonnars lenses, regardless of mount type, exhibit focus shift > as the lens is stopped down, the point of best focus shifts slightly backward away from the camera/lens. This happens at all focus distances.

As for optimisation, I believe the S-mount lenses themselves are optimised for f/2.8 on a standard perfectly adjusted Nikon RF body i.e. the focus helical of the corresponding Nikon RF body is shimmed correctly. The actual optimisation is determined by the position of the focus helical (and thus the lens) in relation to the film plane. On a Nikon RF body, there are shims in-between the focus helical and the camera body that should position the focus helical so that the flange-to-film-plane distance is exactly 34.85mm. However, if for whatever reason (a lot can happen to a camera over 50 to 60 years) the shimming is not quite correct, the lens may behave as being optimised for f/1.5 or another f-stop. So, how the lens appears to be optimised will be determined by how the body its mounted on is shimmed. As such, I think variations in people's observations regarding the aperture this lens is optimised for varies due to camera variations rather than lens variations, even to the point of focusing acceptably on some Contax bodies because the camera variations stack up in your favour.

As for which Amedeo adapter to get, the lens is S-mount, so get an S-mount to M-mount adapter.

P.S. I moved the thread to the Nikon RF forum as its likely to get a better response here.

 

[Vincent]

Thank you Jonmanjiro for all your explanations . Concerning production , I have noted some serial numbers from 15714957 to 15715306 . Less than one year ago , there was a shop in Hong Kong advertising 5 NOS lenses . I bought mine new when it came out . I was a seller in a photo shop in Paris . The Zeiss importer , a single man at that time , wasn't informed about it ! He had to make a special order for me and I had to wait quiet some weeks ( just in time for my SP2005 to be stolen ... another story ) .
Like you said , a lens first calculated for Leica is best for Nikon RF as for the focal length . So with a new Leica body , a new lens and a new Amadeo adapter , the last one has to be S mount , and all should be fine , as everything should be up to specs .
In the end , I will order this adapter hoping for the best .
If it's of some interest for you , I will give you some feedback about this exciting combination .
Thank you all !

Vincent

 

[ChrisLivsey]

Concerning production , I have noted some serial numbers from 15714957 to 15715306 .

Those numbers are interesting as previously we understood production began at 15715*** and ran to no more than 300 so those are out of that range.

On "focus shift" whatever the factory say was done from new some users will have sent them in for adjustment to their preference, when sold on the new buyer may not be aware of that and different reports are given. I note yours is BNIB, as was mine and I have not been troubled by shift and couldn't tell you where the optimum is, I could mount it via Amedeo to my M8 but honestly it's not worth it I'd rather just use it. Just shot some rolls on the M version on a short break, all wide open (an experiment) and the focus is where is placed it.

I hope you enjoy your lens, don't worry just shoot 🙂

 

[Roger Hicks]

See also http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/ps firstlook sonnar 50.html for a "worked example" of focus shift.

Cheers,

R.

 

[jonmanjiro]

Those numbers are interesting as previously we understood production began at 15715*** and ran to no more than 300 so those are out of that range.

I've seen more of these lenses with serial numbers that start with 15714*** but I don't think it means a whole lot for determining the actually manufactured numbers of lenses though tbh. Due to manufacturing defects that occur during the manufacturing process, manufacturers are not able to use every single serial number in a serial number bracket (they just trash damaged serial number rings and go straight to the next one) so there's quite a few missing serial numbers in any given serial number bracket. This is the reason why I think the lens quantities given on Roland Vink's Nikkor serial number page a somewhat inflated (he just subtracts the earliest known serial number from the latest known serial number to calculate numbers). The story of the Nikon SP Limited Edition on Nikon's website explains the difficult time Nikon had making a batch of 2500 cameras and lenses with consecutive serial numbers.

 

[Vincent]

Thank you all for your posts . I received my adaptor 10 days ago , and of course started using it . I wanted to use it a little before commenting on the combination , but seeing your interest , I have to give you my firsts impressions :
-It's a nice piece of work, for me craftmanship is part of the pleasure .
-the focus is stiff , so much that I have to grab the lens to focus it . It has already loosened a bit .
-you have to grab the lens to focus close , as the tab ( and your fingers ... ) goes in front of the finder ( without masking it ...) .
-concerning calibration , it seems evident for me that it's perfectly calibrated for 1.5 . No doubt up close , less evident at long distances . I have to do more tests , just to feel confident with my new toy . I'll keep you informed .
-perhaps do you know that this version has a 43mm filter mount instead of M mount version's 46mm mount . The hood is unique to this version , so I put a crappy chinese vented metal hood . I have to try the Planar 2/50hood and see if it vignettes .
-I'm pumped to be stoked to enjoy it , it's what I wanted .
-my pleasure would be complete if it wasn't busted at the customs ... The declared value was 29US$ , I was charged 89€+15€ of Fedex tax , argh ! " You win some , you lose some , it's all a game to me " .
Concerning production , I just posted what I've found without making any comment . No offense to you Jonmanjiro , you must be right , it's just that to my knowledge , Zeiss didn't state anything concerning production . I understand that a SP2005 is difficult to produce , a S mount C-Sonnar less so , especially without focusing ring , and perhaps the same optical cell as the M mount . I think we will never know for sure without an input from Zeiss .
Next week , I'll be on holyday for one week , I will have more time to play with it . Then I will say more " it is " than "it seems " , I hope ...

Thank you all again !

Vincent

 

[ChrisLivsey]

-perhaps do you know that this version has a 43mm filter mount instead of M mount version's 46mm mount . The hood is unique to this version , so I put a crappy chinese vented metal hood . I have to try the Planar 2/50hood and see if it vignettes
Vincent

If it was BNIB the hood came with it? If not I suggest you contact your vendor.
The correct hood is a bayonet fit.

EDIT; The Planar 50mm f2/35mm f2 hood does fit, it is longer but as it is vented the flare out should not give any vignetting, it is better as it allows a filter of course.

I've seen more of these lenses with serial numbers that start with 15714*** but I don't think it means a whole lot for determining the actually manufactured numbers of lenses though tbh. .

Absolutely agree, the calculation is a crude one without QC allowances. Anyway we know there were not a lot made 😉 and the quality is around the finest from Cosina, IMHO.

 

[Mongo Park]

If you are using it on the monochrome it should be easy enough to show us some of your photos. Please do.

 

[Vincent]

Sorry ChrisLivsey , I wasn't precise enough , of course I have the specific hood . It's just that my user/collector balance lets me bring the lens anywhere but not this unique hood ...

Vincent

 

[Mongo Park]

Monochrom. Apologies.

 

[ChrisLivsey]

Sorry ChrisLivsey , I wasn't precise enough , of course I have the specific hood . It's just that my user/collector balance lets me bring the lens anywhere but not this unique hood ...

Vincent

I see, if you don't use filters then a cheap one that screws will be adequate although the bayonet is very good, it's the sprung loaded ones that i find spring off.
Belatedly welcome to the forum BTW, especially to this section. Although a while off, having said that time accelerates in defiance of Stephen Hawking, March is declared as Nikon rangefinder month when those of us that shoot other brands put then down and concentrate on the Nikon rangefinders.

 

[Larry Cloetta]

Sorry ChrisLivsey , I wasn't precise enough , of course I have the specific hood . It's just that my user/collector balance lets me bring the lens anywhere but not this unique hood ...

Vincent

The original dedicated hood is perhaps the best "user" as it allows one to use a screw in filter on the lens plus the hood which bayonets on, so you can easily use both or either, conveniently.
On the other hand, the bayonet hood for the S model of the C-Sonnar is unobtainium because it is unique to that lens, and Zeiss/Cosina have no more copies, as I have learned from Zeiss customer service lately. If you lose or damage it, that's the end of that.

 

[Vincent]

ChrisLivsey , it's good to know that the ZM Planar hood fits , I'm lucky to have found somebody who actually tried it ...
Larry Cloetta , I was 99% sure Zeiss didn't have the specific hood , now it's 100% .
Beside allowing filters , Zeiss is better finished , that's why the Planar hood seems a good option .
Mongo Park , I'm registered for 9 years without posting . Perhaps will I wait another 9 years before showing photos ... I'm kidding of course , but I feel a bit shy about it : I'm new to the use of digital , the M246 is my first digital camera , I still don't process my images , I've always been reluctant to anything electronical and I feel my images wouldn't be very different than with a regular ZM C-Sonnar ... The problem with my learning curve is not steepness , it's that it starts from zero . But I should make an effort , just in respect to what other people have done here .

Vincent

 

[jonmanjiro]

While on the subject of the dedicated hood, here's a bit of trivia. Here's a photo of the hood mounted on S-mount Zeiss Sonnar serial number 0000007 (a prototype!). Notice the C・N engraving? N for Nikon as we know from the version that reached production, and the C is for Contax because Cosina did originally consider offering a Contax version as well, though that lens never reached the production stage.