shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Hi all, new convert here :angel:
My Zorki 4 arrived last week but was superseded by a Bronica MF SLR in my testing queue.
Now, I have some time to try it out.
First of all, you guys are right, the Zorkis are *pretty* cameras. Here's the obligatory fashion shot:
Now, the good news:
- The shutter trips just fine, opened the back and see the shutter operates smoothly.
- The rangefinder is aligned (took some getting used to not to move the diopter accidentally and then thinking that I suddenly need glasses
)
But... I'm having a problem loading a film into it.
I have made sure that the rewind knob (under the shutter release) is counter-clockwise to the max.
First problem: the take up spool won't hold on firmly on the film leader, even outside of the camera when I rotate it just a little bit, the film leader will come off.
Suspicion #1: Do I have the correct take up spool? I tried to find a clear picture on the net and couldn't find one. See if I can describe it. It doesn't have any slots where the film can go through the spool. It has a metal "tab" that's half the height of the spool and "curves" around the spool. I inserted the film leader into the tab but only managed to get it in slightly.
Suspicion #2: Is there some gunk inside the tab that prevents the film to insert sufficiently. I poke the tab some more with the film leader until finally I can get it pretty tight. Now I can manually with a lot of third-finger-dexterity wound the film tightly *outside* of the camera.
Next problem: when I put the film cartridge and the spool (with the film leader attached to it firmly), I can rotate the advance film dial without problem. The nicely toothed sprockets rotates flawlessly... but!!! As the spool rotates, it doesn't wrap the film around itself tightly, the film just sorta expand in the spool cavity instead of being tightly wound to the spool.
Suspicion #3: Something is broken, because I can manually rotate the spool (clockwise) by holding on the bottom end (it's easy to hold on to because it's threaded) and wind the film tightly onto the spool. At this point it seems things are the way they supposed to be. But as soon as I let go, the spool rotates itself in the reverse direction and unwound the film again.
After repeating this several times, I finally gave up and hope the FSU masters in this forum can shed some light into my spool problem.
Please help! :bang:
My Zorki 4 arrived last week but was superseded by a Bronica MF SLR in my testing queue.
Now, I have some time to try it out.
First of all, you guys are right, the Zorkis are *pretty* cameras. Here's the obligatory fashion shot:
Now, the good news:
- The shutter trips just fine, opened the back and see the shutter operates smoothly.
- The rangefinder is aligned (took some getting used to not to move the diopter accidentally and then thinking that I suddenly need glasses
)But... I'm having a problem loading a film into it.
I have made sure that the rewind knob (under the shutter release) is counter-clockwise to the max.
First problem: the take up spool won't hold on firmly on the film leader, even outside of the camera when I rotate it just a little bit, the film leader will come off.
Suspicion #1: Do I have the correct take up spool? I tried to find a clear picture on the net and couldn't find one. See if I can describe it. It doesn't have any slots where the film can go through the spool. It has a metal "tab" that's half the height of the spool and "curves" around the spool. I inserted the film leader into the tab but only managed to get it in slightly.
Suspicion #2: Is there some gunk inside the tab that prevents the film to insert sufficiently. I poke the tab some more with the film leader until finally I can get it pretty tight. Now I can manually with a lot of third-finger-dexterity wound the film tightly *outside* of the camera.
Next problem: when I put the film cartridge and the spool (with the film leader attached to it firmly), I can rotate the advance film dial without problem. The nicely toothed sprockets rotates flawlessly... but!!! As the spool rotates, it doesn't wrap the film around itself tightly, the film just sorta expand in the spool cavity instead of being tightly wound to the spool.
Suspicion #3: Something is broken, because I can manually rotate the spool (clockwise) by holding on the bottom end (it's easy to hold on to because it's threaded) and wind the film tightly onto the spool. At this point it seems things are the way they supposed to be. But as soon as I let go, the spool rotates itself in the reverse direction and unwound the film again.
After repeating this several times, I finally gave up and hope the FSU masters in this forum can shed some light into my spool problem.
Please help! :bang:
Screwy
All the gear no idea
It sounds like the clutch action on the take up shaft is to loose , If you look at the take up with out the spool in place you will see a spring held on by a long screw , This acts as a clutch . Try tightening the holding screw , If it's tight all ready undo it and gently pull the spring apart to lengthen it then re assemble and try again .
As for the spool , There appear to be two types of take up spool on the Zorki,s , Well there is on mine , both as you describe but one has a hook on the tab that locates into a frame hole the other is just a plain tab . Personally I load my film onto the spool out of the camera , making sure the film is wound round the spool firmly then put it into the camera , I never trust the tab to hold unless it's the hooked tab ,but you have to make sure you clear any pieces of film after rewind using the hooked tab as it tears the sprocket hole .
ps. I will try to post some pictures later if you get stuck .
Paul
As for the spool , There appear to be two types of take up spool on the Zorki,s , Well there is on mine , both as you describe but one has a hook on the tab that locates into a frame hole the other is just a plain tab . Personally I load my film onto the spool out of the camera , making sure the film is wound round the spool firmly then put it into the camera , I never trust the tab to hold unless it's the hooked tab ,but you have to make sure you clear any pieces of film after rewind using the hooked tab as it tears the sprocket hole .
ps. I will try to post some pictures later if you get stuck .
Paul
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fidget
Lemon magnet
shadowfox said:
Hi, I'm just wondering that if you let go of the "wound and tensioned" spool with the back off the camera, wouldn't you expect the spool to come off the driving pegs and unwind? If you look at the fork which engages in the end of the take-up spool, can this rotate freely? It should have a reasonable firmness, as this is what you will rewind the film from (it doesn't disengage on rewind). Looking at the end of the spool which fits on the fork, can you see the "cross bar" which fits into the fork? Is it broken or worn. Can you push the spool onto the fork and feel resistance when you rotate it?
These spools come in all sorts of flavours, my favourite has the "tooth" which catches the film sprocket, sounds like yours is the same as another of mine which gave trouble, the one with a simple tab that holds the film whilst you put the back on, whereupon it jumps off??? fold the film back here and stuff the double thickness in, a bit more solid. if you spool is too short, it would also cause horrible problems, I'll measure mine and get back to you. Hope it helps.
Dave..
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fidget
Lemon magnet
Oops, yours could be the later type with the long shaft with 4 splines which engage in 2 pegs deep inside the spool.
fidget
Lemon magnet
Either would be a similar mechanism, a clutch. Can it be rotated too freely?
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
After fiddling with the camera some more, I think you are right with the above statement. I do see 4 shapes/splines (see picture 1 and 2) and I do see 2 pegs inside the spool (inside the cylinder)fidget said:
Suspicion #4: Am I missing a part? There is nothing that holds the spool from falling off the camera except when the back of the camera is put in place. Is this correct? (see picture no.3)
Furthermore, the spool (alone, without film) can rotate counter-clockwise within the camera, at some point it snags a little bit (I assume that's when the 2 pegs inside the spool catch the shape on the shaft), but then when I apply minimal effort, the spool will rotate freely again.
If the spool *isn't* supposed to be able to rotate continuously counter-clockwise, I then can conclude that I have a spool with too short (worn) inside pegs or a shaft that's not doing its job properly.
What do you guys think?
Attachments
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oscroft
Veteran
Sorry I can't help, but I think I have the same problem with my 3M - the take-up spool comes free part way through the film and flops around loosely. I'll be interested to see if anyone has the answer here.
clintock
Galleryless Gearhead
The spool is supposed to have something like a little nub inside for the teeth you mentioned to catch on, the FED spools look just like the Zorki spools, but have no such nub-catch.
Maybe as a temporary fix, wrap some tape or paper or something to shim between the spool and the toothed part that the spool fits onto to see if that can make it work.
Maybe as a temporary fix, wrap some tape or paper or something to shim between the spool and the toothed part that the spool fits onto to see if that can make it work.
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reagan
hey, they're only Zorkis
I don't have much to offer, but I'll weigh in just to share how my Zorkis function. For starters, I have numerous Zorkis and I don't think any two of the take.up spools are alike. (One is even plastic.) I have no idea which ones are original equipment, but I will say, though some are easier to load than others, they all work... short tabs, long tabs, hooks, etc.
I too have heard of guys folding the very end of the leader, then sticking it under the tab to make it fit tighter... haven't tried this, but if you do, remember that when you rewind you'll be pulling a piece of folded film (a film "hook" of sorts) between the pressure plate and cloth shutters... so go easy.
(When working on a camera, putting the film in and taking it out numerous times, I have just stuffed the leader under the tab and then put a small piece of tape on it to keep it there until I finished putzing with it.)
There's nothing to hold the bottom of the spool except the back [and bottom] of the camera. My 3M spool is so snug it's difficult to pull it off the shaft - my 4 falls out when the back is removed. The 3 is somewhere in between. The take.up spool on my Zorki.3, 3M & 4 can all be rotated forwards or backwards (CW or CCW) together with the shaft when the camera is set in the "wind on" position. There's some resistence, but not a lot.
Shadowfox, looking at your pictures I don't see anything out of whack; the camera looks to be in pretty good condition, better than many. If you've got a dummie roll of film, one you don't plan on processing, secure it onto the take.up spool (tape it if you have to) load it, put the back on and wind and fire 10 times or so, then without rewinding, take the back off and see if the film went on the take.up spool properly with the back in place. If the spool fits loosely on the shaft like my Zorki.4, it may just need the back in place to hold the spool properly.
Good luck - hang in there - you'll get it on the right track soon. (These quirky little FSUs! They're all unique!)
fidget
Lemon magnet
Your spool looks to be an older version than mine, which is plastic. If the splined shaft acts like a clutch as you would imagine, with reasonable resistance to movement, perhaps you have the wrong or worn spool in there?
As I slide the spool onto the shaft, it reaches the top of splines about 4-5mm before it is in place. The spool is 43.3mm long overall and the internal pegs begin 17.7mm from the bottom. I can't see in your pictures that anything is missing, so if the clutch shaft itself works as it should your fix could be easy, get another spool or as Reagan suggests pack the shaft and jam the spool on for a trial.
Dave...
Dave...
As I slide the spool onto the shaft, it reaches the top of splines about 4-5mm before it is in place. The spool is 43.3mm long overall and the internal pegs begin 17.7mm from the bottom. I can't see in your pictures that anything is missing, so if the clutch shaft itself works as it should your fix could be easy, get another spool or as Reagan suggests pack the shaft and jam the spool on for a trial.
Dave...
Dave...
Screwy
All the gear no idea
Hehehe I think my answer says to much about me in all honesty A worn or damaged spool will cause the symptoms you describe , Just peer down the inside of the spool , there should be a peg protruding into the bore , it's this that engages the notches on the take up shaft . Oh and just a thought but I've always loaded my camera's with the top pointing down so that gravity holds the spool on to the take up shaft as the spool is only positively located when the backs on and locked . Also check the spigot on the cover lock that locates in the bottom of the spool , Mines roughly 9mm(3/8) long with a rounded end , it's this that centralises and locates the spool though I would be surprised if this was damaged.
Paul
A worn or damaged spool will cause the symptoms you describe , Just peer down the inside of the spool , there should be a peg protruding into the bore , it's this that engages the notches on the take up shaft . Oh and just a thought but I've always loaded my camera's with the top pointing down so that gravity holds the spool on to the take up shaft as the spool is only positively located when the backs on and locked . Also check the spigot on the cover lock that locates in the bottom of the spool , Mines roughly 9mm(3/8) long with a rounded end , it's this that centralises and locates the spool though I would be surprised if this was damaged.Paul
Xmas
Veteran
shad...x
FSU cameras are not easy to use...
The take up spool you describe is difficult to use and you may need to load the film into the slot (without a crimp or fold) away from the camera and wind three or four turns, in the reverse sense, tighten them up on friction alone away from camera, and load this ensemble of take up spool and cassette on to the camera maintaining the friction, and hold the top of spool as the back is replaced as long as is possible. One of my Zorkis is like this, a one or a five, I think...it is a bottom loader and even more difficult to deal with.
The film should go over the sprocket shaft and dive under the spool, this is the reverse wind - all Barnack derivatives use a reverse wind, the sprocket teeth drag the film, the take up spool (friction clutch) only needs to keep the film on the sprocket teeth, without tooth jumping, the reverse wind aloys a 90 degree wrap around angle.
You then need to remove the lens and set the shutter to B and mark the front face of the film with graphite pencil and waste five frames, then remove back and check that the film has wound on five frames correctly. I think you can fire a four without damage without a lens it is the fives which will self distruct, unless the rangefinder cam is held back gently with a spare finger as the shutter is fired.
If when you remove the back you have a 'birds nest' and you have not wound on five frames then you may need to think about masking tape or other bodges. Some of the FSU dealers may have a stock of 'real' zorki take up spools... but many of these will be exactly like yours.
I've even had a Kiev delivered with a Zorki take up spool, the Kiev wont work at all with a Zorki spool... You may have a similar 'Zorkistein' camera. The suppliers assemble kits without thought, normally they forget about a spool completely... The Kiev worked well with a real Kiev spool, the Zorki spool was better then my other Zorki spools, so I was a real winner...
Sorry this story is not much comfort to you but you can toooo easily see the vista. Please try this procedure and report.
Noel
P.S. If you crimp or fold the film one day you will destroy a shutter... there are blyth spirits who crimp film with Leica M cameras, tusk tusk tusk.
FSU cameras are not easy to use...
The take up spool you describe is difficult to use and you may need to load the film into the slot (without a crimp or fold) away from the camera and wind three or four turns, in the reverse sense, tighten them up on friction alone away from camera, and load this ensemble of take up spool and cassette on to the camera maintaining the friction, and hold the top of spool as the back is replaced as long as is possible. One of my Zorkis is like this, a one or a five, I think...it is a bottom loader and even more difficult to deal with.
The film should go over the sprocket shaft and dive under the spool, this is the reverse wind - all Barnack derivatives use a reverse wind, the sprocket teeth drag the film, the take up spool (friction clutch) only needs to keep the film on the sprocket teeth, without tooth jumping, the reverse wind aloys a 90 degree wrap around angle.
You then need to remove the lens and set the shutter to B and mark the front face of the film with graphite pencil and waste five frames, then remove back and check that the film has wound on five frames correctly. I think you can fire a four without damage without a lens it is the fives which will self distruct, unless the rangefinder cam is held back gently with a spare finger as the shutter is fired.
If when you remove the back you have a 'birds nest' and you have not wound on five frames then you may need to think about masking tape or other bodges. Some of the FSU dealers may have a stock of 'real' zorki take up spools... but many of these will be exactly like yours.
I've even had a Kiev delivered with a Zorki take up spool, the Kiev wont work at all with a Zorki spool... You may have a similar 'Zorkistein' camera. The suppliers assemble kits without thought, normally they forget about a spool completely... The Kiev worked well with a real Kiev spool, the Zorki spool was better then my other Zorki spools, so I was a real winner...
Sorry this story is not much comfort to you but you can toooo easily see the vista. Please try this procedure and report.
Noel
P.S. If you crimp or fold the film one day you will destroy a shutter... there are blyth spirits who crimp film with Leica M cameras, tusk tusk tusk.
oscroft
Veteran
Aha, reading this thread has made it clear why I have the same problem with my Zorki 3M - it has a FED spool with no nubs to catch on the teeth of the spindle (it's identical to the spool with my FED 2 which is held in place by a springy mechanism). Thanks folks.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Glad that his thread can be of some help to others. For me unfortunately, looks like the Z4 is going back to the seller (who graciously will take it back).
I took it to a camera store (the old-fashioned one, not the retail chain) and the gentleman just shook his head and said "I wish", when I ask if he had one of the spool for a Zorki.
Looks like I'm back to zero... I'll probably try to get an engraved Zorki 4K (if such version exists) which guarantees that it won't have *this* problem (but it'll probably have other ones ).
I can't bring myself to get a Z5 or Z6, the shape/form just doesn't appeal to me.
Oh well, at least I have a couple of cool fashion shots *of* the Z4 to remember it by...
I took it to a camera store (the old-fashioned one, not the retail chain) and the gentleman just shook his head and said "I wish", when I ask if he had one of the spool for a Zorki.
Looks like I'm back to zero... I'll probably try to get an engraved Zorki 4K (if such version exists) which guarantees that it won't have *this* problem (but it'll probably have other ones
). I can't bring myself to get a Z5 or Z6, the shape/form just doesn't appeal to me.
Oh well, at least I have a couple of cool fashion shots *of* the Z4 to remember it by...
Screwy
All the gear no idea
If you want a spool PM me your address and I'll pop one in the post
Paul
Paul
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Xmas said:
Hi Noel, I just read your post after I posted my last one. Yes I tried your procedure by tightening the film on the spool outside of the camera. Then as much as I can line the film up over the sprocket teeth, insert the spool in to the shaft and *then* place the film cartridge on the left cavity. The sprocket teeth engages the film holes precisely, and everything seems to be okay. Until I let go of the spool... then the bird-nest formed way before I can shut the back into place.
Even if the above approach works, I just can't muster the dexterity to do this constantly everytime I load a film into the Zorki
Thanks to everyone who helped, you guys are great, I'll get back to Olympus... for now.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Hi Paul, you're a pal!Screwy said:If you want a spool PM me your address and I'll pop one in the post
Paul
I may yet have to take up your offer next time I got another Zorki
But for this one, I made up my mind to return it to the seller (while he hadn't changed his mind
)Screwy
All the gear no idea
No problem
I think I might just have a go at making a fixed take up spool for the Zorki with a slot arrangement rather than the tab , It should make it a little more user friendly . I,ll post on here when I've finished it .
Paul
I think I might just have a go at making a fixed take up spool for the Zorki with a slot arrangement rather than the tab , It should make it a little more user friendly . I,ll post on here when I've finished it .
Paul