Help: can I sell an image with a sign in it?

[rfaspen]

First, I know there used to be a forum/subforum for discussion of the business of photography. I can't find it, so moderators feel free to move this if I'm in the wrong place.

My situation:
I have an image of a small town. The "welcome" sign is prominent in this image and, along with welcoming visitors to the town, it lists the businesses that can be found in this town.

I have a potential client who wants to purchase this image to use as material on their business website and possibly printed material as well.

My query:
Is there any reason why I could not sell this image? In particular, I'm curious about the other businesses listed on the welcome sign. Any reason why the presence of their names would keep me from selling the image? How about the welcome sign itself? I assume it is the property of the small town and I don't know if I'm restricted in that way either.

I can only imagine that the small town and the other businesses would be quite happy to have the free publicity, but who knows. BTW, the most prominent business listed on the welcome sign is my potential client -- makes sense I suppose.

I always have difficulty with this "grey area" stuff. Because I rarely sell anything anymore, I'm not savvy. I haven't worked (photography) for money in over 15 to 20 years now. Wow! I'm old.

Thanks RFFers.

 

[photomoof]

You can certainly sell it.

The issue of use belongs to the business owner who wants to use it. (I am assuming you were on public property when you took the photo)

My guess -- the business owner might run into problems in some cases, but it is up to the business to secure the permission of those on the sign, or even the owner of the sign. Commercial use is complicated, it is the domain of an attorney.

 

[kxl]

You can certainly sell it.

The issue of use belongs to the business owner who wants to use it. (I am assuming you were on public property when you took the photo)

My guess -- the business owner might run into problems in some cases, but it is up to the business to secure the permission of those on the sign, or even the owner of the sign. Commercial use is complicated, it is the domain of an attorney.

Not so sure about that... I don't think that the photographer is 100% absolved of responsibility; after all, it is the photographer who is using the photo (with the names of the other businesses) for commercial use.

I think this falls under the domain of a Property Release, not only from the business owners, but possibly from the owner of the Welcome Sign (if ownership is named).

I would agree that this is probably best vetted with an attorney.

 

[Huss]

17 USCS, sect. 120.
Scope of exclusive rights in architectural works
(a) Pictorial representations permitted.

The copyright in an architectural work that has been constructed does not include the right to prevent the making, distributing, or public display of pictures, paintings, photographs, or other pictorial representations of the work, if the building in which the work is embodied is located in or ordinarily visible from a public place.

 

[rfaspen]

Thanks for the responses folks.

The sign is owned by the small town in question. Located on public property, and photographed from public space.

I'm less concerned that the town itself will be a contention, but the other businesses whose names appear on the "Welcome" sign. There are no logos or potentially copyrighted script, etc. Just the names of businesses in town -- e.g., Joe's Repair and Towing. Jeanettes Cafe, Marsha's Mini-Mart, and so on.

To me, its like having an image of people playing in the park with an ice cream stand behind them, and the ice cream seller listed "coke ... $1.50" on it. Does one have to seek a release from Coca-Cola Corp. to use that image? More importantly, For a business to use that image in their promotional materials?

The right attorney can probably answer my question in 5 minutes. Problem is those 5 minutes are almost certain to cost more than the sale of the image.

I remember this kind of thing was much easier with musical acts -- when they were your client. Snap a pic, hand it to them, receive $$ (OK, I simplified the process). Sure, I supposedly retained copyrights, but these were fly-by-night acts. Only a couple made it "big time".

 

[photomoof]

Not so sure about that... I don't think that the photographer is 100% absolved of responsibility; after all, it is the photographer who is using the photo (with the names of the other businesses) for commercial use.

I have to agree, anyone can be named in a lawsuit, which is why businesses buy insurance.

 

[photomoof]

Yep on the trademarked Coke sign, if the image is an ad.

 

[rhl-oregon]

Let me chime in from the bigger city just south.

It's Corvallis, the friendliest and maybe most helpful town in Oregon! why not check in with folks (planning, regulation, parks?) at city hall, who could probably get you the city attorney's thoughts on this in short order? I know the Corvallis mayor/council are firm about regulating commercial signage by big franchises and keeping town small-biz-centric (he said so at the Eugene City Club). Why not seek friendly free advice downtown?

 

[rfaspen]

Hi Robert,
Well, the town in question is not Corvallis, its Fossil (Oregonians might recognize this town). I am quite certain from previous interaction with some of the city govt. people that use of the photograph for commercial promotion (of a major, key business in this town) is not only OK, but desirable. But, they only own the sign. I'm more worried about the other businesses listed on the sign. They are just listed. No logos or business-specific details. Just the name of the business in plain white text on a brown wood sign.

This seems different than having a Coke ad in the background. Its more like a shop owner wrote on a menu, in their own hand, "coke.....$1.50" on their storefront and I happen to have this text in my image background. Or the storefront has a sign that says, in their own handwritten way, "Microsoft products sold here". I'm just not sure if one would have to seek permission from Coca-Cola or Microsoft to sell the image for business use. Its not official, recognizable Coke or Microsoft advertising... but we already know I'm quite ignorant about these things.

And to be complete. There are about 5-6 businesses listed on the sign in my image. I would expect all of them to be OK with the image used to promote the key business in their town, its good for them too. I'm just leary about "rocking the boat" and hunting down all these businesses, gaining permission, then sending them a very legal-looking document to sign, and not raising suspicion. This is a very small town in rural western United States. These are not necessarily highly educated, legal-savvy folks prepared to feel comfortable with signing legal documents for some random photographer who isn't a "local", etc. Culturally, folks in these towns tend to be suspicious of "outsiders", and I have to say, for good reason. Its an entirely different topic of discussion, but I've seen some things happen that don't respect or benefit these small western towns. So, I'm stuck in limbo...

 

[photomoof]

So, I'm stuck in limbo...

Everything you say has a certain ring of truth, but none of it relates to you.

The publisher of the photo is the one who must take care of rights, not you, as long as you make no representations as to rights.

 

[rhl-oregon]

Oh Fossil! Still haven't been there.
Have been through its cousin town in Colorado, Dinosaur, where I photographed the sign for the Dinosaur Baptist Church. Which, I'd like to point out in fairness to the church, made no claims about rectifying competing claims for the age of the earth or creation and extinction of dinosaurs that exist between some theologies and most scientists....

Since I can't be helpful, I can provide some small distraction. ;-)