Help me choose a film RF

[David Hughes]

I used to pay more attention to reliability ranking for cars. Where can you find camera reliability ratings and how is this measured — do they go by number of images/rolls of film shot per repair incident or something similar?

Hi,

Here's my thoughts; someone buys an old, secondhand camera on the internet and doesn't get an instruction manual and then starts using it. Not reading the manual means they could miss the warnings that are obvious to us users who know that 50, 60 or 70 year old cameras all have their little quirks and so they screw it up.

Or the age of the camera means it is worn and needs an thorough check etc by a technician but the new owner uses it and it gets worse.Then they go on the internet and say my camera has done this and people tell them how to repair it, regardless of the obvious. So they get the bread knife and sit down at the kitchen table to mend it...

Then they sell it and it starts again.

Worse still, people read about it and start warning others that all of them fail and so on.

In other words, what you read has to be taken with a large pinch of salt. Cameras, cars and cakes fail from time to time but that doesn't mean they all do. If you want the truth you'd need to speak to every owner and look in detail at the history of the thing. And so rumours about one old camera with one daft owner become the history of that make and model, and we can thank the internet and general stupidity for it.

It's unlikely that a firm that has been making cameras since the year dot and is still making them would turn out duds all the time and still be in business and profitable.

And long established firms will have churned out millions of cameras, so a hundred or so duds don't mean much in the overall picture, except on the internet...

Anyway, that's just my 2d worth.

Regards, David

 

[olifaunt]

Minolta CLE with 40mm Rokkor. Get one in near-mint condition (from an Ebay seller that has rave reviews) and you will love it. It will set you back $1,000 give or take, which is still less than the top 90s fixed lens cameras like Yashicas or Contaxes go for, and it is much more camera for the money in my opinion.

 

[mod2001]

Hi,Here's my thoughts; someone buys an old, secondhand camera on the internet and doesn't get an instruction manual and then starts using it.

My personal favourite, and it gets even worse when YT blogger start over. @Eric Kim, you can turn off the flash constantly with a Contax T3, just read the manual 😀

And long established firms will have churned out millions of cameras, so a hundred or so duds don't mean much in the overall picture, except on the internet...

And quite often not even a hundred duds but just a few or in worst case just one and the crap gets copied and copied and copied and...

Juergen

 

[Out to Lunch]

What about having a look at the Bessa R3A or R3M and the Zeiss-Ikon ZI. The only issue I've had with the M6 is that the battery cover propelled itself off the camera in a very dark place with me spending 3 hours recovering it. Who shoots hundreds of rolls a month? Not me.

 

[Filter Factor]

If buying new is an option, perhaps a Leica MP or an M7 if one can be found still in stock? Nikon F6 if an SLR isn't completely out of the question. Occasionally the excellent Fujifilm GF670 120 camera can be found, new-old-stock. For that matter, it you're willing to venture beyond the familiarity of traditional film types, Fujifilm's Instax line are tremendous cameras too. 6.6 million buyers last year can't be wrong!


Cheers, Robert

 

[Roger Hicks]

One repair every five years...

I don't know why it is like this. M3 ELC DS I had was with original C seal.
Yet, Fred Herzog told how his M3 broke numerous times back then.

My fifteen+ years old EOS 300 still works without repairs.

Ni, I said I doubt I've had 10 repairs in 50 years. In other words, not as many as 10.

Thinking back, one was the result of a cretin at LAX airport letting my then-new M4P bounce down a metal roller at the end of the X-ray machine, thereby cracking the viewfinder glass. One was a jammed M2. Two were my 1936 IIIa: neither successful.

I think that may be it, though I've had a couple of lens repairs (focusing lever loose on a 25 year old 35 Summilux, barrel failing to lock on an almost new 90/4 Collapsible) and I must have counted these in with the "under 10". Admittedly there's another repair I need now: the strap lug pulled out of my 50-year-old M2. So call it four/five actual camera repairs in 50 years.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

....The M4P was OK....
If you have an M6 and you shoot hundreds of rolls a month, I'm very surprised if you've never had issues. M7 is too electronicy for me. M4-2s, aren't those cheaply made?

I'll be surprised if any film M wouldn't have any issues. The only photog at this rate of shooting film M I knew was GW. He was bringing his M for service regularly and it was not just his two M4.

With M4-2 they removed something gold made in VF and added steel in the part connecting to the winder. They were also assembled with different approach from previous M assembled in Germany. M4-2 is not M4 in exterior finish, either.
My M4-2 needed new parts after hundreds of rolls withing three years. I don't know how many rolls this camera took during previous twenty years. It came to me in user condition.

I had M4-P and it was kind of toyish camera until I have seen M6 for first time. To be honest, I didn't realized it was Leica, so toyish it was at first appearance to me.😀

IMO, most reliable film Leica is new film Leica. A.K.A. M-A.

 

[Ted Striker]

Thanks for all the comments. I have used most of those mentioned except the Nikon RFs. My M8 did last several years with no issues. The M4P was OK, M6's needed CLA's, and upgraded non flare VFs. I'm done with fixed lens.

Here's the thing, I think I want an M mount, as I will probably want a V3, V4, or asph 35/2 cron as I've had before. Also, I want a 35 or 50 with absolutely no distortion. I don't want to edit my photos, and to be honest, I see distortion in almost all non cron lenses, including CVs, and even some summilux, and noctilux lens I've had.

If you have an M6 and you shoot hundreds of rolls a month, I'm very surprised if you've never had issues. M7 is too electronicy for me. M4-2s, aren't those cheaply made?

Zeiss Ikon- M mount and has THE most glorious viewfinder ever made in a 35mm rangefinder. I dearly regret not buying one new when I had the chance.

 

[splitimageview]

No Ms are 'cheaply made,' they are either well-cared for or abused or something in between. Any well-cared for M4-2 will be as reliable as any other well-cared for M.

Pick the features you want, and buy one that checks out, or have it serviced, and you'll essentially be acquiring a new camera, one that operates the same today as it did when it left the factory decades ago.

As for me, I've owned them all, and now shoot either Barnacks if I want the Leica experience, or the Hexar RF if I want easy load, modern fast shutter and flash sync, at much less cost than any pristine M.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Hi,

Here's my thoughts; someone buys an old, secondhand camera on the internet and doesn't get an instruction manual and then starts using it. Not reading the manual means they could miss the warnings that are obvious to us users who know that 50, 60 or 70 year old cameras all have their little quirks and so they screw it up.

Or the age of the camera means it is worn and needs an thorough check etc by a technician but the new owner uses it and it gets worse.Then they go on the internet and say my camera has done this and people tell them how to repair it, regardless of the obvious. So they get the bread knife and sit down at the kitchen table to mend it...

Then they sell it and it starts again. . . .

Dear David,

Well, yes. Or maybe they buy it and just don't use it, so that the mechanism gums up as the lubricants dry out. In Five Leicas on my .eu site, all five need something between a minor repair and a proper overhaul. The crazy thing is that the worst looking, the M3, would benefit most from (i.e. last longest after) a proper rebuild, but is least likely to get one, while plenty would waste money on a "CLA" for the M6 when only a minor repair is needed.

Cheers,

R.

 

[jawarden]

Thanks for all the comments. I have used most of those mentioned except the Nikon RFs. My M8 did last several years with no issues. The M4P was OK, M6's needed CLA's, and upgraded non flare VFs. I'm done with fixed lens.

Here's the thing, I think I want an M mount, as I will probably want a V3, V4, or asph 35/2 cron as I've had before. Also, I want a 35 or 50 with absolutely no distortion. I don't want to edit my photos, and to be honest, I see distortion in almost all non cron lenses, including CVs, and even some summilux, and noctilux lens I've had.

If you have an M6 and you shoot hundreds of rolls a month, I'm very surprised if you've never had issues. M7 is too electronicy for me. M4-2s, aren't those cheaply made?

Zeiss Ikon has 35 and 50 frame lines and the best viewfinder in the business. If you want no distortion the ZM 35mm f2.0 comes to mind.

 

[David Hughes]

Dear David,

Well, yes. Or maybe they buy it and just don't use it, so that the mechanism gums up as the lubricants dry out. In Five Leicas on my .eu site, all five need something between a minor repair and a proper overhaul. The crazy thing is that the worst looking, the M3, would benefit most from (i.e. last longest after) a proper rebuild, but is least likely to get one, while plenty would waste money on a "CLA" for the M6 when only a minor repair is needed.

Cheers,

R.

Hi,

Thanks for adding that; I should have mentioned it and the cameras left in cars in sun in the summer.

I was thinking about it today and suddenly realised that the most maligned RF camera is the poor old FED 1 but it never had an instruction book in English, only Russian. So that helps explain a lot of the abuse it gets physically and typed on the www.

OTOH, I might just have missed the English edition but I think I dig pretty deep (fuzzy logic etc) when searching for things.

Regards, David

 

[Guth]

Anyway, that's just my 2d worth.

Regards, David

Thanks David. I was thinking that there might be some sort of independent lab or consumer oriented outfit that's actually performed documented testing on cameras over the years that I wasn't aware of. (It seems like such tests exist for most anything else you can buy.) But I do catch your drift.

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

I don't think anyone who is both independent and able to test properly has tested cameras over the long term. You can look in magazines and get some sort of account of the cameras but they all do the tests differently and then people will buy cameras and use them; some use them a lot and some a little and some take great care of them and still manage to drop them. So unless you get a complete version of an aircraft's flying log you don't know what you are getting with a second-hand camera.

Best in my opinion is to buy a good looking one and send it off for testing and any repairs to one of the experts. Or buy one with a guarantee and immediately put a film or two through it. Slide film is best but that brings other variables into the equation.

BTW, don't expect dealers to sell one that's been tested with film etc. It's a pity but a film test is the only way to sort out some problems and they leave that to you in my experience. My guess is that they expect a few back and price accordingly and check the obvious. But "the obvious" varies according to their technician's experience...

Regards, David

PS Oops I nearly forgot to say that everyone should get the instruction manual that came with the camera but judging by the number that are sold without one, they don't bother. Sometimes I have had to pay more for the instruction book than the camera cost but I do like to hunt for bargains.The same applies to lens caps and lens hoods, look at pre-war Contax ones for a shock.

 

[presspass]

I've shot M6s for years - ever since they first came out. I've had one repair - the bottom plate somehow became distorted and would let the frame counter reset in the middle of a roll. Took two tries to get it fixed. Other than that, they work fine, day after day, week after week. Other than that, an even older M4 that now needs a complete new cover - all the vulcanite has come off in pieces. It will probably get a CLA at the same time since that's never been done with this camera. The one thing Leicas don't like is being dropped. The camera will be fine, but the rangefinder will probably be off. If you don't mind an orphan, the ZI is, as was said above several times, the best ever viewfinder.

 

[jawarden]

For those interested here's a comparison between the ZI and an M3. The ZI viewfinder is bigger, brighter and more accurate color. The ZI isn't a "better" camera than the Leica, but for me it's much more fun to use so the Leica sits in a drawer, mostly.

 

[Ted Striker]

Sigh......now I REALLY regret not buying a Zeiss Ikon when I had the chance. I held it in my hand for god's sake!!!

 

[tunalegs]

After viewing many hundreds of photos taken with film in 2006-2010, I've decided I want a film camera again.

Really don't care about name or brand that much, but a small RF would be great.

Smena 8m.

Get out of your comfort zone, change your thinking, your vision, and see what happens.

I mean, yes, I see your other comments in this thread, but I like the idea in your first post better. You want a film camera, don't care about the brand, and a small RF would be great. Go with that thought - that's a good idea! Of course the Smena 8m doesn't have a rangefinder, but it shoots film, and it's small, and it's a brand to not care about, for better or worse.

 

[Sumarongi]

Smena 8m.

Get out of your comfort zone, change your thinking, your vision, and see what happens.

I mean, yes, I see your other comments in this thread, but I like the idea in your first post better. You want a film camera, don't care about the brand, and a small RF would be great. Go with that thought - that's a good idea! Of course the Smena 8m doesn't have a rangefinder, but it shoots film, and it's small, and it's a brand to not care about, for better or worse.

Well, not entirely true, there's just no built-in RF, but: one can add a *Blik* 😀
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Blik

 

[tunalegs]

Well, not entirely true, there's just no built-in RF, but: one can add a *Blik* 😀
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Blik

Yeah, but that's fancy territory. You might as well buy a Leica at that point!