click
Established
I have an exciting project that I've been approached to do. I have twelve years in photography but I rarely do it for money so I don't know what to charge.
I will be making a still movie for a magician to play in a loop in the window of his theater. I have made Flash movies before and they take an amazing amount of time to complete. He also wants to be able to use the images for print and the web. Essentially I'd be creating a brand for him.
So I'm guesstimating that I'll spend about 160 hours photographing, developing, scanning, photochoppin' printing and making the Flash movie that will be complete with music and text. This does not include the time I will spend researching and conceptualizing the ideas for the shots. All this is easily a months worth of work, and because I'm a bit of a perfectionist I'll probably spend more than that on it.
While I'm an amateur I do have excellent credentials. First of all I didn't just pick up a camera yesterday and start shooting. I've taken art classes for thirty years and am a graduate of a French art school. I have Leica equipment and know how to use it and the stuff isn't cheap. I also have extensive knowledge of Flash which is a specialized computer field that is very expensive. I'll do a first class job with all of it no matter how much or little I get paid.
I called a friend in a large metropolitan area and asked what they would charge. I was told about $15,000 for such a project. Here's the problem: I live in a very economically depressed area (Arkansas, and don't ask) and while the magician is well established I'm certain that there isn't that amount of money for the project. I want to do it but I'm not sure what would be reasonable. If I charged $20 per hour which seems more than reasonable for advanced services in this area it comes out to $3200 for the project. What do you guys think? I know I'm worth a whole lot more than this and in reality in another market I'd want $9000 for my time, expertise and most of all my artistic ability.
Thank you for your responses.
I will be making a still movie for a magician to play in a loop in the window of his theater. I have made Flash movies before and they take an amazing amount of time to complete. He also wants to be able to use the images for print and the web. Essentially I'd be creating a brand for him.
So I'm guesstimating that I'll spend about 160 hours photographing, developing, scanning, photochoppin' printing and making the Flash movie that will be complete with music and text. This does not include the time I will spend researching and conceptualizing the ideas for the shots. All this is easily a months worth of work, and because I'm a bit of a perfectionist I'll probably spend more than that on it.
While I'm an amateur I do have excellent credentials. First of all I didn't just pick up a camera yesterday and start shooting. I've taken art classes for thirty years and am a graduate of a French art school. I have Leica equipment and know how to use it and the stuff isn't cheap. I also have extensive knowledge of Flash which is a specialized computer field that is very expensive. I'll do a first class job with all of it no matter how much or little I get paid.
I called a friend in a large metropolitan area and asked what they would charge. I was told about $15,000 for such a project. Here's the problem: I live in a very economically depressed area (Arkansas, and don't ask) and while the magician is well established I'm certain that there isn't that amount of money for the project. I want to do it but I'm not sure what would be reasonable. If I charged $20 per hour which seems more than reasonable for advanced services in this area it comes out to $3200 for the project. What do you guys think? I know I'm worth a whole lot more than this and in reality in another market I'd want $9000 for my time, expertise and most of all my artistic ability.
Thank you for your responses.
jan normandale
Film is the other way
.. my two cents... ask him for a budget then you can determine if he will want your services.
click
Established
Thank you. I admit that I'm more of an artist and less of a business man, though I did also get a business degree, it's just not where my head's at. Thank you, this is an excellent insight.
Shine on,
J
Shine on,
J
Pablito
coco frío
and, as user of Leicas and non-Leicas, I would say forget the Leicas and film and developing, shoot it in digital since the end result will not be prints anyway.
Just curious, (as a graduate of a non-French art school), did they teach you how to make French Art at the French art school?
Just curious, (as a graduate of a non-French art school), did they teach you how to make French Art at the French art school?
Papa Smurf
Established
Good advice
Good advice
When you ask for a budget figure, you might explain that you want to do the project very much, but you will be putting a lot of time and effort into it and you would like a just fee.
When I started tilling gardens, I asked an old hand at gardening what I should charge. His answer, "whatever the market will bear". I have learned that if you work too cheaply, they view you with contempt and might not pay you anything. If you value your time too highly, they will just go away. :bang:
By the way, were in Arkansas? I live in west-central Illinois, the part called "Forgotonia"
Good advice
When you ask for a budget figure, you might explain that you want to do the project very much, but you will be putting a lot of time and effort into it and you would like a just fee.
When I started tilling gardens, I asked an old hand at gardening what I should charge. His answer, "whatever the market will bear". I have learned that if you work too cheaply, they view you with contempt and might not pay you anything. If you value your time too highly, they will just go away. :bang:
By the way, were in Arkansas? I live in west-central Illinois, the part called "Forgotonia"
Red Robin
It Is What It Is
HEY!!! Left BRAINER. A worker IS worthy of his hire.
donmcmahan
Member
take into account what it is worth to you? if you want to do more of this kind of work, having this turn out well and have your name on it will raise your profile.
Frank Petronio
Well-known
Well... if the client is a magician in a rural area of Arkansas, what do you expect he can afford? You may well be worth $20K or more for something like this but if the guy is only making $20K per year himself (which seems plausible) it's not going to happen.
Part of being a professional is scaling your projects to fit the needs and expectations of the client/audience. Let's say the guy is doing pretty well and it's a $50K magic biz. Your business school marketing class should have told you that a growing brand may spend up to 20% or more of it's gross on marketing, that is certainly what Nike did in the 70s and 80s for example.
So if he decides to be on a growth phase, maybe he can rationalize a $10K marketing budget, as difficult as that would be. Anyone with a lick of sense wouldn't blow the majority of the budget on one thing... it would make a lot more sense to dedicate about a third of the budget towards something like this.
$3333.
Now your job is to work backwards and figure how to deliver something effective, that will grow his business, that you can do in a week or less for $3333.
Yor're inexperienced and passionate so you'll end up working all month on it, we know this. But use a week for planning so you're not totally screwed. If you think you're looking at 3-4 weeks right now, cut it way back at this planning stage. If you go in expecting a month, it could be three....
Finally, do not work by the hour for something like this. Let him know you're working hard and dedicated, but remember this is a creative fee, not a work for hire job. And while there probably is a portfolio benefit, don't factor that in to the finances -- just work hard and do your best, add a little extra, that sort of thing. More artists get screwed over "but you'll get a tearsheet..." than anything else.
Part of being a professional is scaling your projects to fit the needs and expectations of the client/audience. Let's say the guy is doing pretty well and it's a $50K magic biz. Your business school marketing class should have told you that a growing brand may spend up to 20% or more of it's gross on marketing, that is certainly what Nike did in the 70s and 80s for example.
So if he decides to be on a growth phase, maybe he can rationalize a $10K marketing budget, as difficult as that would be. Anyone with a lick of sense wouldn't blow the majority of the budget on one thing... it would make a lot more sense to dedicate about a third of the budget towards something like this.
$3333.
Now your job is to work backwards and figure how to deliver something effective, that will grow his business, that you can do in a week or less for $3333.
Yor're inexperienced and passionate so you'll end up working all month on it, we know this. But use a week for planning so you're not totally screwed. If you think you're looking at 3-4 weeks right now, cut it way back at this planning stage. If you go in expecting a month, it could be three....
Finally, do not work by the hour for something like this. Let him know you're working hard and dedicated, but remember this is a creative fee, not a work for hire job. And while there probably is a portfolio benefit, don't factor that in to the finances -- just work hard and do your best, add a little extra, that sort of thing. More artists get screwed over "but you'll get a tearsheet..." than anything else.
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Jamie123
Veteran
I agree with Frank. Scale down the project to a degree where the budget is justified. You'll either have to compromise on quality or quantity and obviously you'll want to do the latter.
Be specific in your estimate about what is included an what he'll get for how much. Maybe put together two different estimates. A cheaper ''light'' package and a ''full'' package that's a bit more expensive. But of course the light package should contain enough to serve its purpose. No use selling him something cheap that he won't be satisfied with.
Be specific in your estimate about what is included an what he'll get for how much. Maybe put together two different estimates. A cheaper ''light'' package and a ''full'' package that's a bit more expensive. But of course the light package should contain enough to serve its purpose. No use selling him something cheap that he won't be satisfied with.
click
Established
Thank you for all your thoughtful responses. I finished the project last week and have been paid. In the end I used 571 pictures to make a "video" that was seven minutes and 14 seconds in length. I worked part time on the project for five months and earned a paycheck that I think was worth it. The magicians ex-girlfriend told me in confidence that he clears several thousand dollars a weekend during the tourist season so I felt good about what I charged. I'm happy, the Magician is happy and the movie looks great. Even better is that when I showed it to him for the first time there was another Photographer there who is the Vice President of a company that shoots still documentaries for the movie industry. I was offered a job on the spot.
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What a great end to this story!
Congratulations!
Congratulations!
Leigh Youdale
Well-known
A great outcome all round. Congratulations!
My two cents was what I found with consulting. Work out how much you want annually, divide it in thirds. One third will be non billable marketing time. Another third will possibly be billable in some cases and not in others but devoted to development of deliverable product and the last third will be billable face to face time. You have to charge an hourly rate for the face to face time that will cover all the rest, or your annual revenue will fall short of your projections.
My two cents was what I found with consulting. Work out how much you want annually, divide it in thirds. One third will be non billable marketing time. Another third will possibly be billable in some cases and not in others but devoted to development of deliverable product and the last third will be billable face to face time. You have to charge an hourly rate for the face to face time that will cover all the rest, or your annual revenue will fall short of your projections.
click
Established
Thank you for your kind support. I pitched another, smaller project today and will know something by Tuesday.
I really haven't been charging for face time but perhaps I should. I've been adding a creative fee because I feel that's what really sets me apart from the numerous clowns with "fancy digital cameras" and I actually charge a great deal more than they do which I "think" makes people take me more seriously.
I heard from the documentary company last night and the Executive Producer is coming out to see me in the near future. I'm told that my first project will either be a movie in Jefferson, Texas or a documentary made by Edward Norton (Not an obnoxious namedrop, it's just the only thing I know so far.) but they haven't decided which to send me on because they are both happening at the same time.
After twelve years with my little Leica things are really starting to payoff. Last week I secured an ongoing project that will pay $28,000 over the next year. The moral of the story is: follow your dream if you believe in it the dream will come true, well that's what my fortune cookie said.
Included is a very CHEESY shot from my next film project where the customer wants a Disneyland feel. Note that this isn't really my taste but I have to give the people what they want. I made it using Kodak Portra 160 which is an amazing film. Now if I could only get my hands on a ton of Scala 200...
I really haven't been charging for face time but perhaps I should. I've been adding a creative fee because I feel that's what really sets me apart from the numerous clowns with "fancy digital cameras" and I actually charge a great deal more than they do which I "think" makes people take me more seriously.
I heard from the documentary company last night and the Executive Producer is coming out to see me in the near future. I'm told that my first project will either be a movie in Jefferson, Texas or a documentary made by Edward Norton (Not an obnoxious namedrop, it's just the only thing I know so far.) but they haven't decided which to send me on because they are both happening at the same time.
After twelve years with my little Leica things are really starting to payoff. Last week I secured an ongoing project that will pay $28,000 over the next year. The moral of the story is: follow your dream if you believe in it the dream will come true, well that's what my fortune cookie said.
Included is a very CHEESY shot from my next film project where the customer wants a Disneyland feel. Note that this isn't really my taste but I have to give the people what they want. I made it using Kodak Portra 160 which is an amazing film. Now if I could only get my hands on a ton of Scala 200...
