Help with vintage Folder's

[olwick]

Hi,

I'm preparing for a November trip to Cambodia and Bali and am trying to decide on a MF camera. Since one of the options is a vintage folder, I thought I'd ask the experts here. I've worked with MF in the past (TLR's, Mamiya, etc) and love those big negs.

I'm considering a Fuji 645zi (I will also take along a small digital for snapshots and a couple Holga's for fun), but wanted to see if there was a better alternative. Here's the ideal camera:

• Easily portable for travel shots (hence me inquiring about folder's)
• Large neg, preferably 6x7, but could also be 6x6
• Definitely 120. I don't want 620 or similar.
• Coupled rangefinder. I don't want to guess distances.
• Built in meter - important, I don't want to carry a lot of extra bits.
• Good quality glass - good speed glass is a plus, but most of my shots with this would be outdoors.
• And here's the rub: My budget is between $500 and $800 or so. Obviously that leaves out a lot of cool options, but c'est la vie.

I see a whole lot of vintage folders on eBay, but don't know my Agfa from my Zeiss! I like the idea of the folding cameras though, just for ease of portability.

Anyone have any ideas? Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Mark

 

[pagpow]

If most of your shots are going to be outside, AND you prefer at least 6X7, but are considering a 645, I'm wondering if there is more give to your specs.

I've used 6x9 Zeiss Ikontas and Nettars -- not Super Ikontas -- with Tessars and even "lower" lenses with a lot of satisfaction. Hard to go wrong if you're shooting in light that lets you go f8 or f11 and infinity or hyperfocal.

Stays well under your budget. Doesn't get you a meter, but one less camera will make up for that. Not convenient for close focus and I haven't run them close to open so can't speak to people's complaints about them in those circumstances.

I didn't want to try them because of their lack of amenities and then I saw the chromes. That was that.

 

[Krosya]

Well, if you are talking real vintage - none will have a meter. But you could get a Voigtlander one - small, good and if your camera has a hot/cold shoe - it'll fit right in.
Well, there is a great folder - Plaubel Makina, but it'll be more than you say you would like to spend.
From my personal experience - Welta Weltur - comes in 6x6 and 6x9, plus has a mask for 645 (well, should have a mask), - great coupled RF folders - if you can find a good one. Plus many have to be CLA'd - as they are, well.....vintage and mostly not used in a long while. However, I'd suggest a more modern camera - in your budget - something like Fuji 645 series. ZI version is nice, but slow zoom lens. I used to have one a while back and sold it, as I find that zoom too slow. Ones with prime lenses will work better I think. Like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/FUJI-GA-645W-Pr...goryZ710QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
But I think this one is a bit too much $$
And these are not too heavy. Most everything else will be outside of your budget, unless you get really lucky.
So, good luck.

 

[Solinar]

I was going to recommend an Agfa Super Isolette/Ansco Super Speedex - but alas no meter and you do have to reset the shutter before each exposure. The Super Isolette/Super Speedex are 6x6 folders with CRF and an Automat film winding system.

 

[DC1030]

super ikonta 533/13: 6x6, build in light meter, 2.8 tessar lens.
get a camera with coated lens and working light meter, they are not cheap, but for
600 $ you should get it. superb lens and overall great building quality. but it is not light...regard andreas

 

[Solinar]

The other Zeiss Ikon with a built-in meter was the Super Ikonta 534/16. It is much lighter than the 533.

 

[FallisPhoto]

• Easily portable for travel shots (hence me inquiring about folder's)
• Large neg, preferably 6x7, but could also be 6x6
• Definitely 120. I don't want 620 or similar.
• Coupled rangefinder. I don't want to guess distances.
• Built in meter - important, I don't want to carry a lot of extra bits.
• Good quality glass - good speed glass is a plus, but most of my shots with this would be outdoors.
• And here's the rub: My budget is between $500 and $800 or so. Obviously that leaves out a lot of cool options, but c'est la vie.

First the bad news: There are lots of vintage folders that meet most your criteria, BUT ...
1. there is not one single vintage folder I know of that is worth having that has a built in meter. I think I remember reading about a couple of oddballs with meters out there, but neither was worth having. You're going to need a handheld meter.
2. the 6x7 format is a relatively recent phenomenon. If you are looking at vintage folders you will find lots of 6x9 (a postcard-proportioned format) and 6x6 cameras, and even a few 6x4.5 cameras, but I can't think of any 6x7 folders offhand that are vintage. I'm not saying there are none, just that I can't think of any offhand --and I've been collecting and restoring vintage folders for years now. If the built-in meter is really important to you, I'd suggest something more modern or maybe a TLR.

Now the good news: Other than the two previously discussed points, there are several cameras that meet your other criteria. Welta and Voigtlander, in particular, made some very nice 6x6 and 6x9 folders that are in your budget range. Both manufacturers offered several grades of cameras, and with your budget, you can probably afford to get one of the nicer lenses. Just look up the lens and make sure it is at least a 4-element tessar type (you'll be looking for a Tessar, Skopar, Solinar, Soligor, Xenar, Xenon, Heliar, and -- well, the list goes on, but the lenses I've mentioned are good and are fairly easy to find). If I wanted a folder and if I were in your position, I think I'd be looking at Voigtlander Perkeos and Bessa IIs and at Welta Welturs and Weltaxes. Another possibility would be an Agfa Super Isolette (the Ansco Super Speedex is the same camera). If you got one of those though, you'd probably have to deal with the usual Agfa/Ansco problems (frozen focus and rangefinder and replacing the bellows -- they are really nice cameras once these problems have been fixed, but nearly all Agfa/Anscos have them).

 

[Matthew Runkel]

If you can live with 6x4.5 (and its default portrait orientation), the Fuji GS645 meets your other criteria. Within your budget you could find a good one AND get a CLA and bellows replacement/upgrade from Frank Marshman at Camera Wiz. The original bellows are suspect even if not yet leaking, but the replacements are from a different source and much more reliable. In terms of final results, I'm not sure whether a 50-year-old tessar on 6x9 beats the Fuji's exceptional modern lens on 6x4.5.

If I were taking an old folder and Holgas on a significant, rigorous trip, I would want to bring a small, high quality film camera as backup. Something like a Contax T2.

 

[kuzano]

I agree on the GS645....

I agree on the GS645....

If you can live with 6x4.5 (and its default portrait orientation), the Fuji GS645 meets your other criteria. Within your budget you could find a good one AND get a CLA and bellows replacement/upgrade from Frank Marshman at Camera Wiz. The original bellows are suspect even if not yet leaking, but the replacements are from a different source and much more reliable. In terms of final results, I'm not sure whether a 50-year-old tessar on 6x9 beats the Fuji's exceptional modern lens on 6x4.5.

If I were taking an old folder and Holgas on a significant, rigorous trip, I would want to bring a small, high quality film camera as backup. Something like a Contax T2.

I have had two of the GS645, and I would not own one unless Frank Marshman at Camera Wiz replaced the bellows and did his shutter linkage rebuilt strengthening the linkage.

The GS645 was a superb idea very poorly executed. The bellows material was inferior (some paper based product I've heard), and I would never buy the camera with an original bellows unless I could get it for $250 and everything else was in excellent condition.

My last GS645 just came back from Frank and he:
replaced the bellows
CLA's the lens/shutter assy
Repaired the film count mechanism
Repaired and adjusted the Rangefinder
Tested exposure metering with film
Modified the shutter linkage

All for under $300, and I bought the camera accordingly at $200 so as not to have $500 in it. This is the second GS645 Frank has done for me.

I continually see people buying this camera on eBay, supposedly in "minty" condition but with no reference to bellows replacement. I can not imagine one of these cameras running the original bellows with any reasonable usage and no leaks. In fact, I have seen buyers pay upwards of $600 with no claim of bellows replacement or any service work. Some cameras just push the "idiot" button for some people.

Now, If you like my story, call Frank about timing. He had my last GS645 for a long time because of bellows supply. He insists on good bellows and waits until the supplier commits and delivers. I don't push at all on this issue.

The linkage mod is to strengthen a linkage that suffers from people NOT doing as insisted on by the instruction manual. NEVER fold a GS645 shut without the shutter cocked and the focus set on infinity. Damage will result after a few episodes of forgetting to cock the shutter and setting infinity before folding.

Given those constraints, The GS645 meets every requirement you set out except the larger format. It is, used properly, a magnificent cameras, with 15 shots on 120 and 31 on 220. It meters well. No vintage lens will touch the image quality, and I have had dozens of old folders. The metering has always been excellent on the GS and GA series 645 cameras I have owned.

To go up a notch, look at the GA645Zi. it adds to all the wonder of a GS645, autofocus and a 50 to 90 zoom. It is slighly larger than the GS645, and not a folder.

I just received my GA645Zi back from Frank for a new LCD on the back and a CLA and checkout. The shutter counter shows over 32,000 shutter actuations and it received a clean bill of health.

I know exactly what you are looking for considering your list. I don't know how long you have to shop, but the complete list does NOT come in any vintage folders easily. Quite frankly, I don't know of a folding vintage camera that comes close outside the Mamiya 6 Automat. It has 6X6 and everything on the list, except metering. That camera was Mamiya's last folder in the years 1955 and 1956. One of the best lenses I have ever used of that era, outdone only by the Fuji glass in all the Fuji rangefinder cameras.

If you are not hung up on a folder, an excellent choice would be a Fuji rangefinder model GW670II or GW670III which will fit the high end of your budget with the 6X7 format, but will have to be hand metered.

 

[olwick]

Thanks for the great info so far, everyone. By the way, 6x9 would also be an option. I had forgotten that this was pretty prevalent back then as well.

Thanks,

Mark

P.S. Kuzano, do you have any contact info for Frank Marshman? Does he have a Web site?

 

[kuzano]

Old school... no web site

Old school... no web site

Frank Marshman can be reached at:

Camera Wiz camera repair
169B Pleasant Hill Rd
Harrisonburg, VA 22801-5715
(540) 434 8133

Very reasonable man, and I have always had good experience with him. However, I am never in a hurry, and I understand that you can't push good work. I've had fast turn around and some very lengthy waits, but Frank very often answers his own phone and is responsive when he does. OTOH, he is often not responsive to emails, and occasionally not to messages left for a return call. I'm ok with that considering the quality of the work and the reasonable prices. My last experience was about a 3 month wait for a bellows from the supplier and about 3 days to do the work and ship the camera to me. His packing is over the top.

BTW, Fuji still appears to work on the Zi models, as well as the big rangefinders, but Frank seems to have good communication and support from Fuji.

 

[literiter]

Hi,

I'm preparing for a November trip to Cambodia and Bali and am trying to decide on a MF camera.

Mark

Folding cameras are my absolute favorite. I prefer my old Super Ikonta Bs and Cs as well as my fine old Certo Six over my Hassy 501CM.

But, if I were going to Cambodia, Bali etc. I'd want a very good, reliable camera that I was totally familiar with. 60 year old folders may not be all that reliable, I'd want to be sure.

Choose well.

 

[Roger Hicks]

But, if I were going to Cambodia, Bali etc. I'd want a very good, reliable camera that I was totally familiar with. 60 year old folders may not be all that reliable, I'd want to be sure.

Seconded. With at most 4 months to find and buy the camera; perhaps have it overhauled; and learn to use it -- I wouldn't.

I'd also add that the vast majority of classic folders have indifferent lenses (they were normally used for 6x9 contact prints) and that even the good ones often have sloppy struts after some decades so the lens is not seen at its best. Unit focusing lenses are normally quite a bit sharper than front-cell focusing.

Over the last 40 years I've had at least two or three dozen reasonably well regarded classic roll-film folders, and to be honest, I've never been impressed by many of them, and that includes Zeiss and Voigtländer. The best have been 6x6cm Zeiss Ikontas and Super Ikontas; these are also a LOT cheaper than 6x9.

Cheers,

R.

 

[tmcgartland]

I have just returned from the Lake District where I used an Agfa Isolette with Apotar lens. I never took a light meter and I set the camera up on the morning I arrived using the aperture and distance scale. As I stopped printing at home some years ago I used Peak Imaging to dev/print my work and it arrived yesterday. The prints were superb and I am thrilled at the quality the camera captured. I paid £16 for the camera and it is in almost mint condition. It was wonderful walking around the area with nothing in my mind only composition.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I have just returned from the Lake District where I used an Agfa Isolette with Apotar lens. I never took a light meter and I set the camera up on the morning I arrived using the aperture and distance scale. As I stopped printing at home some years ago I used Peak Imaging to dev/print my work and it arrived yesterday. The prints were superb and I am thrilled at the quality the camera captured. I paid £16 for the camera and it is in almost mint condition. It was wonderful walking around the area with nothing in my mind only composition.

Yes, but...

Presumably the Lake District is nothing like as far from you as Bali is from the OP; presumably you've used the camera before; and presumably you weren't having big prints made. The Apotar is a Cooke triplet with (as I recall) front-cell focusing and at 8x10 inch (a 3-4x enlargement, with border, depending on how you crop) it has already started to show its shortcomings.

Almost any lens should be OK at a 2x-3x enlargement (5x7 inch/13x18cm, say, off 6x6cm), and I won't dispute for a minute that the bigger neg gives you better tonality than 35mm. Even so, I'd rather have a good 35mm than almost any RF folder.

I do have quite a few MF cameras, from Splendidflex (which makes a Lyubitel look good) to Linhof and Alpa, but the only bellows MF camera I own that gives really good results is the 'baby' Linhof; not what is conventionally meant by 'MF folder'.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[Windscale]

Yes, but...

Presumably the Lake District is nothing like as far from you as Bali is from the OP; presumably you've used the camera before; and presumably you weren't having big prints made. The Apotar is a Cooke triplet with (as I recall) front-cell focusing and at 8x10 inch (a 3-4x enlargement, with border, depending on how you crop) it has already started to show its shortcomings.

Almost any lens should be OK at a 2x-3x enlargement (5x7 inch/13x18cm, say, off 6x6cm), and I won't dispute for a minute that the bigger neg gives you better tonality than 35mm. Even so, I'd rather have a good 35mm than almost any RF folder.

I do have quite a few MF cameras, from Splendidflex (which makes a Lyubitel look good) to Linhof and Alpa, but the only bellows MF camera I own that gives really good results is the 'baby' Linhof; not what is conventionally meant by 'MF folder'.

Cheers,

Roger

I have used a couple of Isolettes with Apotars (yes triplets) for many years and got many 30x30 prints and many more 20x20 prints from them without any problem. But I must stress that it is necessary to calibrate the lens correctly. And most important would be to get the lens to filmplane distance right on. That is why when we bought them we would often see one two more even three spacers stacked in front of the lens to make the lens to filmplane distance that little bit longer. That's how they did it in the factory before packaging. Some people would take out those spacers and just focus the lens to infinity. This will not do. The proper way is to check that if the infinity is right, 5ft and 10 ft are also right. If the lens to filmplane distance is not right, even if infinity is right, 5 and 10 ft will not be right at the same time and the lens will not perform well. So the spacers can fix it all. This is the problem with all lenses with front element focusing.

The Apotar lens once stopped down to F8 is really not that much behind any other tessar design lenses.

And, back to the main point of this thread, I would cut out the Holgas and have a good handheld meter.

Also, I would concentrate on 120. Although I have a Leica setup as well, but I don't think any of them can produce the same kind of prints once you get to 24x36 or 30x30. 6x6 is my favourite size as I can concentrate on composition without having to worry about vertical or horizontal format.

 

[vdonovan]

I would love to do a whole trip to somewhere interesting with just my Zeiss Ikon Nettar! As several posters have said, it seems that working with a very simple camera would help one concentrate on composition and light. Working with a good vintage folder will give you as good or better image quality as a more modern camera for less money. And they are more fun to use.

That said, you shouldn't go on any trip with a new camera! You should take several months to get used to it and find its sweet spots. If you're not used to working without an in-camera meter it can be very frustrating to fumble around with meter and camera. After a while you get used to it and get into a groove. As others have said, eventually you get a feel for the light and can just set the exposure without looking at the meter.

I've bought one vintage folder on Ebay (an Ansco Speedex Special) and would not buy another. The seller may say "mint" or "minty" but they probably don't know what the hell they are talking about. The camera may look beautiful, but many old folders have the focus ring cemented in place by the old lubricant. If the bellows have not been replaced there may have pinholes. The seller probably has not checked any of these things.

I will buy my next folder from www.certosix.com He knows these cameras well and fixes the things that need to be fixed.

Good luck! Have a great trip.

 

[chippy]

WOW this has almost turned into an old fashioned 'i can get as much outa my 35mm as you can out of your ol 120 rollfilm camera' argument LOL, sure beats the hell out of hearing 'my digital can do everything your film can do' 😛

still its a well known fact that once the early 35mm cameras were introduced there was a real need to place better lenses in front to be able to have a image quality that was aceptable. i cant say i am a fan of apotars or worse still agars but with todays films people can get images that are aceptable to some..the trick is to use them within their limitations to achieve the best they can do..some examples in previous post by gdi are a good example

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60241

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60409

whilst these are very well done pics they really do show a great many lens aberations that kinda make me cringe (all credit to gdi though for using the camera to its full advantage to produce what i think is about the best you get out of that lens. and in this respect a 35mm with 6 or more element lens really is going to produce something quite nice in comparison. i really wish they had of goten around to putting them on the old folders as well--but ah well.

still there really is no substitute for neg size imo and an old bellows camera with a tessar type lens (IMO) and preferably focusing that moves the whole lens and not just the front cell beats 35mm hands down. when i look back at all the thousands of pictures i took with modern (in their day) 35mm canon and such (had to it was for money and a job) against any of the 6x6 hassy pics there is simply no comparison. of course the old bellows cameras are no hassleblad and the lenses arnt the same quality either but you still get that beauitful tonal range and creamy look with colour that is instantly noticable even in postcard size prints that just dont happen with 35mm ...just my thoughts but i am sure many others would agree.

the points Roger makes about the the potential problems or worn out status you may get with a folder is fair comment (ive had plenty), and has the potential to give you disapointmet with so little time before you head of on holiday only to discover whatever faults it may have when its too late. you can be lucky ..or unlucky eh. if its a good one it really shoudn't give you any problem..heck their not that complicated and if its in good nick there is little reason why after surviving 50-70 years it would bugger up now

but then again i've had modern pro cameras with few films run through them break down when it was most inconvienient...and then the dam back up camera! can you imagine the cursing that goes on when you take the camera to service agent...only to hear him say 'yeah i had a few in here lately with the same problem'

tmcgartland i think now you have a solinar version of the isolette you will be in for a very pleasent surprize compared to the apotar.

i like and use the old folders because they are fun, i imagine the times in which they were used and people that used them. the process of thinking and forming your image is enjoyable. they have a stack of disadvantages but they have a bunch of good points to them as well, the big 6x9 negs for me i like. the quality you get using todays modern films really closes the gap.

there are many cameras to choose from (folders or not) its just a case of how much you have to spend. if i was going overseas on holiday i would take a few different cameras ..but i would definetly take a folder...their compact, i think robust, compact relatively speaking, classy, produce good results and hmm just fun

 

[tmcgartland]

I think the use of old folders can be a hankering to get back to the past, possibly the days when you really had a buzz for photography.

My recent trip with the Agfa Isolette cost me £15 to buy the film and a further £25 to get them printed - and that was just 36 prints (5x5).

I got a FREE 1gb memory card with the order for my film so thats the comparison!

 

[Solinar]

It takes me about a year to not only familiarize myself with a folder, but rid it of defects as well. Once they work, they work as intended. You adapt to using a folder, not the other way around.

The best optical resolution is from my 75mm/3.5 Solinar with helical mount unit focus on a Super Isolette. Fine details are as good as a TLR with a Tessar-type lens.

That said I really do enjoy the rendering of Heliar on a Bessa II, which is probably resolving a little more than 10 lines per mm on most shots. - that ain't much when compared to modern lens. However, out of focus backgrounds are creamy, contrast isn't very stark and as Roger alluded to tonal rendition is quite pleasing. For bitingly sharp images through out the frame on an 11 by 14 print, look else where.

With regard to the original poster, as soon as I saw the need for light meter, I questioned whether a folder would be the right choice. Ergonomics can be right out of the 1930's, as in non-automat film winding.

Schlepping a medium format film camera and its supplies through airport security is to be commended. Buy the Fuji 645zi and use it heavily for the next couple of months. In other words become as familiar with it as the back of your hand. The Fuji 645zi is probably compact enough to fit in an over the should satchel with a compact digital, maybe even a small dSLR. A heads up on the battery charger for the digital will need an international power converter.