Hobbyists

[Mark T]

Dear Mark,

I had absolutely no intention of disagreeing with you about the relative merits of 'amateur' and 'professional', and indeed, I'd go further: I'd argue that when it comes to photography, there are very few professionals (in the sense of being paid) who are not also amateurs (in the sense of doing it because they love it).

My dispute was over the way that more and more trades want to call themselves 'professions', and over the definition of 'profession'. Historically there were the three 'learned professions' of divinity, the law and (later) medicine, and of 'profession of arms', or soldiering -- none of which had a single overarching 'professional' qualification or body.

Because of (what I regard as) a false reverence for the idea of a 'profession', all kinds of trades have set up so-called 'professional' bodies or organizations. Some are for pure prestige; many are 'closed shops' to make it difficult for non-members to compete in undemanding and sometimes frankly shady trades, such as selling real estate; and a few are a sort of accolade, of interest only to the more intellectually minded members of a given 'profession' who want to keep up with the latest information. As an example of the latter, my father is an Associate Member of the Institute of Marine Engineers (A.M.I. Mar. E.). It's not a qualification in any way; no employer would ever demand membership; but it shows what sort of person he is.

Cheers,

R.

Point taken Roger. It's pretty hard to argue the fact that there are many "professional" organisations that are anything but. However, a good professional institution can do good things for their members in the dissemination and discussion of ideas etc, as well as benefit the people that use the services of a certified doctor/engineer etc.

Something you allude to, is that there is a difference between a trade and a profession. Given that photography is a "doing" activity, as opposed to employment which results in an opinion (a profession?), I'm inclined to think photography is a trade more than a profession anyway. What do you think?


Mark

 

[Mark T]

I see this all the time and I just don't get it, always this focus on those who might not have the freedom you do and none on the ones who actually have far more freedom in photography than you do just so you can say you would not want to a professional photographer, a truly bizarre ritual of denial...

I'm not really sure what you mean here? Freedom, denial? I just enjoy taking photographs, where's the harm in that? Photography is not my job, but that's not to say I have a job I don't like, or that I have a job I wish to leave to take photographs. On the other hand, I have other amateur interests and hobbies outside of photography but that doesn't mean I want to be a "professional" motorcycle racer now either.


Mark

 

[Mark T]

As with so many things the word "professional" has been requisitioned by the marketing men in recent years. In my youth we aspired to use the Gentleman's entrance not the Players one, looked down on the sham and military athletes other countries entered in the Olympics and generally gave a higher status to the people who did things for the love of it.

In a consumer society there seems to be a necessary misunderstanding or denigration of the true meaning of amateur in order to market all this professional gear more successfully.

Hi Stewart,

You have expressed very nicely exactly how I feel! There should be nothing wrong with being amateur but now it seems the word has many negative connotations. Similarly, being professional should not necessarily be the ultimate aspiration of us all. However, acting in a professional manner, is another thing entirely...



Mark

 

[Roger Hicks]

As with so many things the word "professional" has been requisitioned by the marketing men in recent years. In my youth we aspired to use the Gentleman's entrance not the Players one, looked down on the sham and military athletes other countries entered in the Olympics and generally gave a higher status to the people who did things for the love of it.

In a consumer society there seems to be a necessary misunderstanding or denigration of the true meaning of amateur in order to market all this professional gear more successfully.

Dear Stewart,

A brilliant analysis, though I might say 'forced' rather than 'necessary'.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

. . . Something you allude to, is that there is a difference between a trade and a profession. Given that photography is a "doing" activity, as opposed to employment which results in an opinion (a profession?), I'm inclined to think photography is a trade more than a profession anyway. What do you think?

Mark

Dear Mark,

I love this! It also illustrates the historic divide between physicians and surgeons. The former, of course, always looked down on the latter.

Ar which point, of course, the falseness (and in some ways, inferiority) of the concept of 'profession' is exposed.

By coincidence, I am currently working on exactly this kind of analysis and I shall borrow your distinction with thanks and glad cries.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Sparrow]

Dear Stewart,

A brilliant analysis, though I might say 'forced' rather than 'necessary'.

Cheers,

R.

... poor grammar, sorry, I meant more that in order for consumerism to be paramount the market must set the status of things. So it's the market's necessity rather than societie's, what was it uncle Joe said about a lie told often enough?

 

[Mark T]

Dear Mark,

I love this! It also illustrates the historic divide between physicians and surgeons. The former, of course, always looked down on the latter.

Ar which point, of course, the falseness (and in some ways, inferiority) of the concept of 'profession' is exposed.

By coincidence, I am currently working on exactly this kind of analysis and I shall borrow your distinction with thanks and glad cries.

Cheers,

R.

Roger,

Very glad that struck a chord with you. I guess you are referring to medieval barber-surgeons, not getting along with the more learned leech-prescribing physicians of the day? Wishing you every success with your analysis.


Mark

 

[KM-25]

It's a common denial of self convenience among many amateurs. For example, you seem to have his misconception that pros do not have as much freedom to shoot what they want when they want as you and that exceptions are rare when in fact they are far more prevalent than you might think. Even a post above mentions that most pros are also amateurs in the sense that they love what they do, read: do it for the love of it like you but you did not respond to that...

In terms of citing examples, why aim so low when in reality the others you are not bothering to mention are less rare than you might think...?

In my opinion the most common answer to the question above is simple:

Denial.

I'm not really sure what you mean here? Freedom, denial? I just enjoy taking photographs, where's the harm in that? Photography is not my job, but that's not to say I have a job I don't like, or that I have a job I wish to leave to take photographs. On the other hand, I have other amateur interests and hobbies outside of photography but that doesn't mean I want to be a "professional" motorcycle racer now either.


Mark

 

[KM-25]

Who ever said there is a anything wrong with being an amateur? I was one in my teens, I loved it then and I love it even more now. I am not sure why people on here are hung up on a label, I call my self a photographer because that is what I am. The simple difference is that I have 100% of my time to do what I want and I get paid well for it.

It's odd, when I run into my amateur friends, we never have these discussions, I only see them on the good ol' web....

Hi Stewart,

You have expressed very nicely exactly how I feel! There should be nothing wrong with being amateur but now it seems the word has many negative connotations. Similarly, being professional should not necessarily be the ultimate aspiration of us all. However, acting in a professional manner, is another thing entirely...



Mark

 

[Mark T]

It's a common denial of self convenience among many amateurs. For example, you seem to have his misconception that pros do not have as much freedom to shoot what they want when they want as you and that exceptions are rare when in fact they are far more prevalent than you might think. Even a post above mentions that most pros are also amateurs in the sense that they love what they do, read: do it for the love of it like you but you did not respond to that...

In terms of citing examples, why aim so low when in reality the others you are not bothering to mention are less rare than you might think...?

In my opinion the most common answer to the question above is simple:

Denial.

No it wasn't so complex as that. I just didn't understand what you were trying to say, although I did get a sense of being personally attacked.

Anyway, to answer your question, I agree that professionals probably enter the field because they like it in the first place. However, when they take pictures for their own purposes they are behaving as amateurs. When they are working as professionals and being paid, then 9 times out of 10 it is within the constraints set by the person who paying them. That is the distinction I am making.

 

[TXForester]

If it is a hobby you always need to "justify" these things. On the other hand I feel that most hobby photographers buy gear because they want a brand/model/type while more professional ones buy gear because it let them do something.

True, but the same can be said of the hobbyist. If my hobby is wildlife photography and early morning and evening gives pleasing light and is the best time to catch certain species, then I too must invest in a fast lens to avoid shutter speeds that are too slow. I guess you can say I justify the cost of the fast lens because it is the tool needed to "do something."

 

[Sparrow]

By training I'm actually a commercial artist and I've earned my living all my working life as a textile designer, so if being paid for one's work is the criteria then I am a professional artist and designer, and have been for forty years or so.

Anyway, work for pay is necessarily restrained by cost, I have to make a margin so I work to a cost, I have to walk the fine line between retaining my commercial reputation and making as much money as possible for each hour I've spent working on it.

All of which is quite different from my photography upon which I'm happy to lavish however much time is required to produce the best possible print I can ... some cultures seem to be confused as to which is has the greater value these days.

 

[KM-25]

No it wasn't so complex as that. I just didn't understand what you were trying to say, although I did get a sense of being personally attacked.

Anyway, to answer your question, I agree that professionals probably enter the field because they like it in the first place. However, when they take pictures for their own purposes they are behaving as amateurs. When they are working as professionals and being paid, then 9 times out of 10 it is within the constraints set by the person who paying them. That is the distinction I am making.

Right, and what I am trying to say is that when I shoot photos for my self, I am behaving as a photographer, not anything else but...and I get paid for it.
I am not attacking you, just pointing out that you are stating what I see as common misconceptions.

I don't think anyone has to justify anything, just do what you love and love what you do...

 

[Mark T]

Right, and what I am trying to say is that when I shoot photos for my self, I am behaving as a photographer, not anything else but...and I get paid for it.
I am not attacking you, just pointing out that you are stating what I see as common misconceptions.

I don't think anyone has to justify anything, just do what you love and love what you do...

KM-25,

We'll have to agree to disagree here. If you were say, a wedding photographer, you would be shooting what someone else's wedding, at their chosen time, and at their chosen place. No doubt you have the freedom to choose how you go about that but you would still be contrained by the limits of subject, location and time. Another example would be product photography. You would be given a product and asked to present it in a certain way to deliver a certain message. How you got about that would be your own choice but you are limited in scope otherwise. You can apply this to fashion, sports and goodness knows how many other kinds of photography as well.

Having to deliver a product that someone has paid for is necessarily different to doing something for it's own sake. I have no doubt that you or many other photographers enjoy taking photos which are paid for. It's a challenge and there is very likely the satisfaction that comes with a job well done. However, the difference in motivation and method remains. When the difference includes things like subject and location I would argue that it is significant.

I was initially defending the use of the word amateur, as you will see it was discussed a page or so back. In common useage it has become a term of derision. Marketing at camera companies makes the distinction between "amateur" models, and "professional" models, as opposed to producing cameras with different specifications.

The next thing I wanted to clarify is that "professional" is not something that really ought o apply to photography in the first place. Professionals go to university and study under a Professor. When they graduate with a degree they join a Professional Organisation (often requiring a certain period as an associate), and the product of their work is usually the profession of ideas and opinions.

Since photography is a productive field, which produces a material product it is more of a trade. Like many other trades photographers often serve a period of apprenticeship as assistants to other tradesmen. Any study is typically a Diploma or a Certificate course acquired at a Technical College. There is also that element of craftsmanship that anyone from a sculptor to a carpenter might possess.

i am not claiming one thing is better or worse. However, the word professional is used all the time in lots of places, but it is not well understood.

I've seen on several of your posts that you make money from your photography, which is really great. It's obviously what you want to do and you enjoy it. I wish you continued success.

 

[Sejanus.Aelianus]

You do have to be very careful with names, they can lead to all sorts of confusion as Ray Bradbury once pointed out.

😀