HorizonT film advance issue?

[shawn]

Curious if anyone has worked on the HorizonT? I picked one up that is in great physical condition. I had to adjust the position of the stop that unlocks the shutter release at the end of exposure as it wasn't always resetting properly at the end of exposure. New light seals and on a test roll on the bench everything is working fine and it advances fine for the entire roll and I tested advancing the rolls at least a dozen times with no problems.

However, in actual use the camera gets to around 12 or 13 exposures and then isn't fully advancing the film. It starts skipping while winding on. The turrret keeps winding but the film advance does not continually move. I think both the geared sprocket and the takeup spool skip as it isn't tearing the film or eating sprocket holes. When it does it it does it mid-wind and the shutter release has reset so I don't think it is quite the same issue as at:
http://pierrekerr.ca/photography/horizont.html

It is almost like the rewind unlock is engaging slightly during the advance but I'm not seeing how that would be happening.

Any thoughts?

Shawn

 

[shawn]

Update on this, essentially the rewind unlock was kicking in.

This is the film advance. The spring holds the black piece to the right down inside the roller where it engages very tiny tabs into the base so that when the film is wound it turns the roller. The piece under the roller is the rewind button, it screws into the black piece through a hole in the bottom of the roller. Push the button, the black piece rides up and disengages the tabs from the roller so that the roller free spins.

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What was happening is the spring is weak and if the tension increased the black piece would ride up and disengage from the roller.

I tried stretching the spring but it didn't make any difference. I bought a replacement spring and just tried installing it. (7mm OD, 35mm long and the wire size is 0.8mm)

Now if I add tension on the roller it is still turning and advancing without a problem. The spring I used is a little too strong through, have to push pretty hard on the shutter release or the rewind button. I think same OD and length but with smaller wire size would be about perfect.

Shawn

 

[JeffS7444]

Interesting post, thanks. I generally don't encounter weakened springs so much as dried-out or hardened lubricants: How's the rewind crank on that camera and any film guides: Turning smoothly with little resistance? Pretty sure the film advance is supposed to limit the amount of force that you can exert, lest you tear the sprocket holes.

 

[shawn]

The rewind knob spins easily as does the one roller inside the camera. Makes sense to limit force but in this case I think it is doing that too soon.

Shawn

 

[JeffS7444]

How's about the film guides, any tendency for film to stick there rather than gliding? Very common for me to see some oxidation on the rails. I use this to polish those areas:
http://www.nevrdull.com/
I've never used a Horizont, but I do own an FT2, and one of these days I really should run some film through it. No excuses really, since I own several of the special cassettes that it needs.

 

[shawn]

Film guide is bright, shiny and smooth.

I took the spring back out and cut it down a bit (was longer than it needed to be) and that helped with the shutter release pressure a bit. Film advance seems to be working fine too. Will try on film again.

This is my second HorizonT. First one was a mess but this one is in really nice shape. If I can get the advance issue worked out I think it is going to be a nice camera. In a number of ways I prefer it to the Widelux. Viewfinder is much better, f16, and since it alters shutter speed by slit width (drum rotates at one speed) 1/30 is much more usable than 1/15 on the Panon where it changes shutter speed by drum speed and takes a long time to sweep at 1/15.

Shawn

 

[shawn]

Jumping back to this as I finally developed some film. The spring did fix the advance problems. I just cut it down slightly shorter as it feels like it still have too much shutter release pressure. Still have more than the weak spring so hopefully it will still advance properly.

Some shots had light leaks from the seals at the turret. I took that apart last night to make new seals. I went in through the bottom and did not take the turret out. Removed the stops and the speed limiter to get at the seals. Old seals were badly deteriorating so I pulled them out and cleaned up the channels as best I could with Q-tips in alcohol. I made new seals with self adhesive flocking cloth and air conditioner foam on one side and self adhesive neoprene sheet on the other. The trick is to get the size correct so that it seals the light but on the left side you have to be really careful that the seal doesn't get stuck between the housing and the lens opening in the turret when you start to wind on. I used the neoprene on that side with the flocking stuck it it and then it stuck to the edge of the body furthest from the opening.

Will put film through soon to see if the light leaks are gone.

Shawn

 

[shawn]

Continuing work on the HorizonT. This one had vertical play in the turret that I think was causing some softness on shots from a little vertical camera shake while the turret was rotating. I took the whole thing apart to tackle that but it turns out it could have been fixed just from above.

The turret holder up top has an adjustment to set the load on the bearings. On mine it was turned down all the way but still had play in the turret. I removed the adjustment nut, added a washer and then put the retaining ring back in.

Now the turret has no vertical play at all and no longer clunks when inverting the camera. While I had the turret out I redid one of the light seals as I could get at it much better. I used self adhesive neoprene sheets with self adhesive velvet flocking material. The velvet wraps/sticks to three sides of the neoprene and the neoprene sticks into the camera.

I also had to print a small spacer to eliminate play in the large gear under the turret that connects to the speed limiter.

Shawn

 

[shawn]

I prefer the Widelux focus setup compared to the HorizonT. If I am shooting near wide open it is more likely due to being inside and the default focus of the HorizonT is to always have infinity in focus. Based on this old article I decided to try and change the focus point of the HorizonT to be closer in. I used one layer of copper tape on the rails and need to trim the tape slightly more in the corners of the film gate.

With a very unscientific shot of my tile floor it looks like the focus point is about 10' away when wide open.

I also took the speed limiter out again and very lightly greased the gears and gear holder contact points with Superlube synthetic grease. This made quite a difference in the sound of the camera, it is much quieter now and with a lower pitch sound. Turret speed looks like it increased a little bit too, around 350 or 400ms end to end and it just feels smoother while it is spinning.

First test roll is done after all the work and the camera is in better shape. I was getting pretty bad light leaks on most of the shots and now they are almost gone. On one shot it might have a light leak but it was also a vertical shot in 10 degree F weather so it might have been banding too at one point. Film advanced well and eliminating the turret vertical play did result in the shots being sharper.

Shawn

 

[Arash]

Update on this, essentially the rewind unlock was kicking in.

This is the film advance. The spring holds the black piece to the right down inside the roller where it engages very tiny tabs into the base so that when the film is wound it turns the roller. The piece under the roller is the rewind button, it screws into the black piece through a hole in the bottom of the roller. Push the button, the black piece rides up and disengages the tabs from the roller so that the roller free spins.

[/url]

What was happening is the spring is weak and if the tension increased the black piece would ride up and disengage from the roller.

I tried stretching the spring but it didn't make any difference. I bought a replacement spring and just tried installing it. (7mm OD, 35mm long and the wire size is 0.8mm)

Now if I add tension on the roller it is still turning and advancing without a problem. The spring I used is a little too strong through, have to push pretty hard on the shutter release or the rewind button. I think same OD and length but with smaller wire size would be about perfect.

Shawn

Thanks for this post. It’s very illuminating of the mechanism.

My horizont has the opposite to the problem you have described.

The rewind release button appears to be stuck somehow - it can’t be pressed any further or pulled out. The sprocket roller is not released and film can’t be rewound.

Based on what I read here, I am guessing the black piece you have identified from inside the sprocket roller is stuck down at the bottom and not pushing up to release the rewind. Does that make sense?
With the winding/shutter trigger assembly removed, the sprocket roller can be moved freely in both directions.
I have not removed the sprocket roller from the camera body (how?)
I have tried grabbing and pulling the black piece up by reaching it with forceps, but I see that wouldn’t work if the release button is screwed into it.

Otherwise the camera seems ok - turret moves smoothly and the light seals were replaced before I bought it - it was advertised as having been serviced and functional.

Would appreciate any suggestions on releasing this jamb.
Thanks
Arash

 

[shawn]

As I recall you take the spocket out from the bottom. There is a lever that holds the rewind button down (for rewinding) which you have to remove. Make sure that lever isn't locking the button in the advance position. On this camera that lever was causing me grief so I just removed the whole thing. Means I have to hold the rewind button in the whole time but that is fine. I don't remember if it was locking it in advance or rewind though.

If that isn't the problem watch the position of the spring before you take the lever off. Then I think there was just a cover that release the spoket roller out the botton. I don't think the advance mechanism had to be removed from up top but I might be wrong on that. After get that out it should be easy to see what is going on.

 

[Arash]

Thanks for the reply.

The rewind lever looked as pictured and seemed to be ok - but of course I am not certain.

I have removed the roller from the camera.
Also removed the three tiny retaining screws from the sides of the roller near the bottom end.
The rewind button will not budge.
Have applied sone WD40
Tried pulling, pushing, turning clockwise, counterclockwise… it will not come off.
What am i missing?

 

[shawn]

Pretty sure it is standard thread direction as it turns clockwise on film rotation which would tighten it.

Does your button move up/down inside the sproket or is it still locked in position? If it is locked I'd think you might have some corrosion inside between the black piece and the sides of the sproket.

WD40 is actually pretty lousy at breaking stuff free. PB Blaster works much better IME though I wouldn't use it on this. I'd probably soak the whole thing is something like naptha for a couple of hours and see if it helps loosen it up.

Maybe don't try unscrewing too hard as you won't want to break the little pins at the bottom of the black piece or snap the screw itself either. You really just need to get that mechanism sliding up/down smoothly to get the rewind working properly. After soaking maybe stand the sproket upright with the button on top and lightly tap it is still if it will break free. If it does start to move soak it again and repeat until it is moving freely.

 

[Arash]

Yup, you’re exactly right.
Good lord i had to muscle that thing loose but it’s finally free and whatever lubricant had been in there has turned to cement. Wish I could photograph the inside to show.

I’ll take your suggestions to free the black piece from the inside.
What is the purpose of the three tiny set screws?

Anyway, I’m a lot closer to getting this thing usable than yesterday.
Thanks.
Arash

 

[shawn]

My guess on the set screws is to hold the mating part of what the black thing fits into for film advance. That is really the only thing in there that you would want fixed into position. The screw and the black piece have to be able to move to be able to rewind.

With the screw out I think just soaking everything in naptha should help break up the lubricant in there. Once you get that black part out you can really clean it and get it working.

 

[Arash]

Thanks
So would it be best to leave the set screws in place so whatever they are holding doesn’t get dislodged?

 

[shawn]

Probably. If you just can't get the black drive part out them maybe take the screws out and see if comes out with the mating piece, that the set screws likely hold in place. I don't think I ever removed them.

 

[Arash]

Fantastic!
Thanks for the guidance.
Free at last.
Managed to extract the toothed black piece and cleaned out a lot of gunk - I assume dried lubricant? - it is now all back together and the rewind button is behaving.

Assuming I have not done any harm by removing the top (I was careful to not misalign the shutter speed and aperture gears, but you never know) it’s finally time to load a test roll and see if the rest of the mechanics are in order. I can tell the light seals have been replaced at least.

Thanks for the help.

Looking forward to playing around with a panoramic camera for the first time.
It’s been a “fun” journey so far. If nothing else, 50 years’ worth of dandruff and cigarette smoke tar have been cleaned away from the inside, so that’s a good thing…

Shawn, I might reach out to you again about your experience with adjusting the focus distance.
Thanks again

 

[shawn]

Excellent, glad you got it apart. Should be in good shape now. You might try a test roll now just to make sure you don’t have the same feed problem I had now that that piece is freed up. I had a 202 and a Widelux and I prefer the HorizonT. Plus it is relatively easy to work on. Not a ton of info online but pretty easy to figure out when you get into it.

Have fun!

 

[Arash]

It’s always the simple things, isn’t it…?

I can’t figure out this problem.
After reassembling and test firing a couple of time, I loaded film and after the first exposure the shutter release was jambed.
Another round of disassembly/ reassembly I finally opened the back and noticed the problem is that the film will not stay wound around the take up spool.
I’m pretty certain I have the film loading path correct, hopefully the pictures show that, and take up any slack in the film by winding it back a little to make sure it’s taught before closing the back. But it happens again.
Where’s my mistake?
Could it be the film stock? Are these things that finicky?