Horseman SW612, and alternatives

[thegman]

Hello,
I'm after a handheld, wide angle medium format camera. As a point of reference, I'd love an Alpa with 6x9 film back, or a small Cambo or maybe a Horseman SW612.

What am I forgetting here? What other cameras should I be on the lookout for?

I've had a Mamiya 7 before, and I don't think I want one again. Plaubel W67 is maybe not wide enough for me. I'm looking for something close to 'super wide'.

Cheers

Garry

 

[hausen]

Linhof 612. Shot mine a bit. Nice balance and great VF.

 

[Beemermark]

I have a Horseman 6x12 back and use it on either my 4x5 Crown Graphic or Toyo f4x5 field camera with a 28 mm VF. Works great. For real critical work I can use the ground glass & tripod.

 

[Frank Petronio]

I have owned the excellent Noblex 612UX twice now, plus a more basic 612 Noblex, and they are a hoot. It's a real challenge to make interesting wide angle photos.

What I like about the rotating lens cameras is that they make an image that isn't simply a flat crop with a rapidly diminishing wide angle distortion... like every other tog with a wide angle lens. Not that Noblexes don't distort but they do so in a different way. It's a good mental challenge to figure out what they'll do.

Plus they are very sharp and well made. I found them easy to handhold and the vertical shift and focusing of the UX model is very useful. And even though the UX is the top of the line, if you are patient they do sell for under $2000 US and Bob Watkins at Precision Camera Works can still maintain them.

Otherwise flat cameras, even a $$$ Alpa, beg the question of "if I am spending top dollar to shoot the ultimate" then I am only fooling myself by limiting myself to roll film. A cheap 4x5 Crown Graphic with a good lens will humble any Superwide medium format no matter how much it cost... throw a Horseman 6x12 back onto a 4x5 if you must, it will be much more versatile combination and save you a ton of money.

There is that guy in Ottawa with a Linhof 612, and while I may ***-*** it for myself, I have played with them and they certainly are nice cameras.

 

[thegman]

Linhof 612. Shot mine a bit. Nice balance and great VF.

Yes, this is very much on the list if I can get one at the right price, I think Horseman seems a fair bit cheaper though.

 

[thegman]

I should say that I already have a superwide 4x5 camera, a Fotoman 45SPS, I'm after something a bit more portable, usable etc.

I'm not sure if a Noblex is for me, cool cameras no doubt, but not sure if right for me.

I completely agree about if you're paying top dollar, one should expect top quality, but I certainly am willing to compromise quality for portability. It's a sliding scale of course, i.e. a GF670 is not really any bigger than a Leica, but gives much better image resolution. A 4x5 is quite a lot bigger than a 6x9, but only gives a marginal improvement (assuming non-massive print sizes).

 

[ChrisN]

If you'd be satisfied with 6x9 you might consider the Fuji GSW690. The 65mm lens gives a field-of-view equivalent to 26mm focal length on a 35mm camera.

Another option might be a Hasselblad SWC (23mm focal length equivalent FOV) and crop to 2:1. Great lens with negligible distortion. Very easy to shoot with hand-held (but you need to practice keeping it level).

 

[GaryLH]

Fuji pano like the 617

Gary

 

[thegman]

Fuji pano like the 617

Gary

A 6x17 is an interesting idea, I'm pretty sure my V700 can scan such negatives...

Obviously a touch on the big side, but a very different way of taking photos.

I think a SWC is not quite for me, but I'll think on it a bit, that small size is very tempting, but then so is a 6x12 negative.

 

[Frank Petronio]

I've used the Fuji and Linhof 6x17s... The Linhof kept the film flatter and therefor was sharper. The Linhof is also very expensive but you get what you pay for. Loading the film is a bit trickier than it looks and you only get four frames per roll so you can blow through a lot.

But again, it gets into "larger than 4x5" territory when you consider a $500 Horseman 6x12 back on a compact 4x5 does the same thing with movements and inexpensive lens choices.

Yes your Epson can scan 6x17. The custom film holders are better since you can keep the film flatter but even the stock film holders will work if you tape the film flat. In reality you end up cropping 6x17 a lot since you are usually only able to afford one mounted lens and they are also very bulky on their lens cones.

Sometimes you see an older Linhof 617 on eBay with the fixed 90/5.6 SA for around $2500, that's not a bad camera.

~~~

In terms of sheer image/value the old Brooks Veriwide that were in the compact all-in-one body with the 47/8 made 6x10 images (7 per roll). They are very compact (about the size of a small DSLR) and image quality is good. Their weak point is cosmetics and film transport, plus parts are long since gone. But if you get a good one....

With any of these cameras you're dealing with f/5.6 or f/8 and focusing by the numbers so you pretty much need ISO 400+ film for handheld unless you are in the desert/beach/snow.

 

[Emile de Leon]

Old Brooks Veriwide 6x10..not much bigger than a Leica M..Ken Ruth in CA..can fix em up good..
I've had mine for over 20 years..you want portability in a WA cam..the one with the swinging door on back is it..
Carry small..print ..big..

 

[kram]

Could try a Corfield wa67 with a 6x8 mamiya back. Similar to a 21/22mm on 35mm, but with shift capability. I sold my Mamiya 7 43mm lens and use this camera instead.

 

[Calzone]

Garry,

Consider a Plaubel 69W Proshift. The 47/5.6 is a Super Augulon formula and is basically a 21mm FOV on a 6X9 negative. Having shifts on a 120 camera is a big bonus. I find the ergonomics and loading to be fast/great. Know that the VF'er 'peroscopes" with the shifts for accurate framing.

I own one BTW.

Cal

 

[thegman]

Thank you for the advice so far to everyone. I think for the right price, I'd like the Linhof 612, or maybe the Horseman SW612, but I've never a had a Linhof camera, and would like to try one.

I do like the Plaubel Proshift a lot, and it can be had just about in budget (< $2000 USD), but I wonder if I'd regret not getting a 6x12 camera.

Corfield looks very nice, but looks a little less handheld that the others, and again, would I wish I'd got 6x12?

Anyway, thanks again. Any more suggestions, keep them coming...

Garry

 

[philipaloft]

It depends on whether or not you want different focal lengths, the option to switch films mid-spool, or a fixed focal length with or without changing backs.
All those options have wildly different prices.
I have Noblex 150 ( 6x12) , Brooks Plaubel Veriwide (6x10), Horseman SW612 , Horseman convertible (6x9), and Graflex Pacemaker 6x9 ( my first 6x9).
We all have different preferences, but I agree with Emile - the Veriwide 6x10 has more versatility than most. It's relatively small, well designed, and has worked well for me both in close with crowds of people or in a more restrained fashion for landscapes. It has the 47mm f8 SA lens. I feel that the resultant image is not only sharp but seems to have an extra degree of luminosity. Mine has a slightly worn shutter mechanism so that once the button is partially depressed you might just as well take the photo because releasing the pressure on the button won't prevent the necessity of winding on to the next frame before being able to reset the shutter again - this is something to check for. The same lens is also put on a Veriwide frame for taking 6x9 Horseman or Graflex backs, if you want multiple films.
But the Brooks Plaubel Veriwide 6x10 would become a go-everywhere friend. It requires either good light or fast film.
Philip

 

[PhotoMat]

I have a Horseman 6x12 back that I use on my Wista 45SP. While I have always lusted for the Linhof panoramic cameras, I had a hard time justifying the price. Also, I figured that if I was going to get a dedicated panoramic camera, I would go with a 6x17.

Last year, I purchased a new Fotoman 617. While the Fotoman is no Linhof, I found it to be a well made, nicely finished camera. Yes, Fotoman cameras are still in business, but I don't know if they have yet reestablished a U.S. distributor. I purchased my camera from them online and shipping from China was quite prompt. My my camera arrived with the wrong lens cone for my 90mm Rodenstock Grandagon lens, they quickly rectified the problem and sent me the correct cone. In my dealings, their customer service has been top notch. I also believe they may have tweaked the design, as I noticed subtle improvements compared to the earlier cameras that were the subject of internet reviews.

I would strongly suggest that you check out the Fotoman product line -- they are definitely a step up from the DaYi and Gaeorsi versions that you see on ebay.

 

[thegman]

Hi there,
Yes, I bought a Fotoman 45SPS from Fotoman in China, brand new. You're right, customer service is faultless is my experience. A Fotoman 612 or DMax is in the running, but much as I like and admire Fotoman for their work, the experimenter in me wants to have a go of something else.

I've also had a Fotoman 69, again, great camera, but I think I might regret getting 6x9 and not 6x12.

Philip, you, Emile, and Frank all have made me reconsider the Veriwide. I was not considering something quite so old, but it's so small, and 6x10 might be a very nice format.

 

[philipaloft]

I guess an argument for the Veriwide is that if you can find one in good condition that's not overpriced , they're actually going up in value it seems to me, and you should be able to sell it without a significant loss if you so choose.
Perhaps I should mention that sometimes my own inexperience led to the necessity of cropping because of vignetting - induced, if I can remember, by stopping the lens all the way down. Although I usually shot at f11, which was fine.
That camera works well with architectural work if you simply level the camera and crop the inevitable excessive of foreground.
You can use a VC 21mm finder, but if you find one that still has its fold-up front wire and swing-up little eyepiece on the back, that's all you need.
The version that seems to be slowly going up in price is the 6x10 camera-style version, rather than the frame with changing backs.
Philip

 

[thegman]

I guess an argument for the Veriwide is that if you can find one in good condition that's not overpriced , they're actually going up in value it seems to me, and you should be able to sell it without a significant loss if you so choose.
Perhaps I should mention that sometimes my own inexperience led to the necessity of cropping because of vignetting - induced, if I can remember, by stopping the lens all the way down. Although I usually shot at f11, which was fine.
That camera works well with architectural work if you simply level the camera and crop the inevitable excessive of foreground.
You can use a VC 21mm finder, but if you find one that still has its fold-up front wire and swing-up little eyepiece on the back, that's all you need.
The version that seems to be slowly going up in price is the 6x10 camera-style version, rather than the frame with changing backs.
Philip

Certainly sounds like an attractive camera, although I'm hesitant to buy something quite so old, and something I have no idea about. At least with Leica I'm aware of the basic things that can go wrong, I'd be buying blind with the Veriwide.

It'll remain on the shortlist though.

 

[Frank Petronio]

I've never seen a "nice" looking first version Veriwide (the compact one) as the chrome is nasty. But worse, the film transport and release are flimsy/funky. I've owned two, I would be afraid of needing to fix one and Ken Ruth, bless his soul, would take forever.

Sounds like you should go for the Linhof 612 if you can find one at your price. Next question is 65 or 135?