How about a digital body with minimal menus?

It's just a simple illustration to quantify things. Personally, I'd prefer much more improvement than just this, but the Fuji X-H1 is a good example to use, as I just so happen to own one.

Anyway, it's just shows how things could improve without changing the text menu-system at all, but offer a system that has direct jumps instead of hopping along on lots of stepping stones. 🙂

Anyone who prefers button presses can still do it that method.

Anyone who prefers touch has that option if they desire. If the X-H1 had full touch, I'd also want to turn off touch completely for shooting purposes, and only use it during playback and menu operations.

There are many more ways to improve the status quo than this, of course.
 
I blame the marketing guys; they can’t settle on a design requirement so they allow the customer to do their work for them, knowing software can enable most things. And why build video into a stills camera? Madness!
 
Bill Clark said:
My iPhone didn’t have a manual in the box.

Didn’t need it!

Easy peasy to use.
Click to expand...


Maybe.

When I had an Android phone (KitKat version), I could put my web page bookmarks into folders and both the folders themselves and contents could be sorted according to various criteria. Eight years later, when I "upgraded" to a new Android phone (Oreo version), I suddenly discovered most of the apps had less useful functionality and many more useless features. No longer can I alphabetize nor sort my bookmarks. I don't have subfolders. Maybe there's a way to do it by transferring to a PC and back, but it's surely not obvious.

I started looking at iPhones, experimenting to see if I could create subfolders and organize folders. If there's a way to do it, it wasn't obvious.
 
splitimageview said:
It's just an EXAMPLE that illustrates how much time and effort is needlessly wasted on button presses...

Geeze. As usual, entirely missing the point...

Did you see the part where 22 button presses became 5 touches to get to the same location? This is leaving the menu system as-is (i.e., not very well organized.)

There are untold number of functions that could save similar amounts (or more) effort...not to mention significantly less time recovering from going down the wrong menu path...
Click to expand...

I suggest refraining from such ad hominem expressions.

There are NO circumstances where I need to press any collection of buttons 22 times for anything I'm going to do on any of my cameras (I don't consider entering a string of data characters like copyright info to be a "command sequence of button presses"). Every command on the most complicated camera I have (the Olympus E-M1) is accessible within six to ten button presses, maximum. That may be two too many, but the number of times I've needed to use those commands can be counted on the fingers of one hand since 2013 when I bought the camera. Most commands on any of my cameras require two to three button presses.

The issue that arises isn't the number of button presses/control gestures/whatever but their organization such that they can be learned, and remembered, easily. The Leica CL and SL are the class masters at this, for me, with the Hasselblad 907x a very close second.

And touch screen interfaces littered with button bars and miscellaneous gesture operations are at least as difficult to learn and remember as a well organized menu system, in my experience. Touch and gesture often add to the complexity of user interactions, not reduce. Just as a camera with too many discrete mechanical buttons, slides, dials, etc, does.

G
 
That's great that your camera requires fewer annoying and time consuming button presses, but that doesn't change the fact that many other cameras DO require lots of them, on top of poorly organized menus. Olympus being one of the worst offenders in that regard, as mentioned earlier in the thread, and to which you agreed…

A high count of annoying and time-wasting button presses that could easily be slashed significantly, if only the camera designers put even just a little thought into improving the user experience...

Having the ability to jump in a more direct manner to a specific function may not appeal to you, but that does not mean that it doesn't appeal to others.

As people have commented here, some very capable and very popular devices selling for hundreds (or low thousands) of dollars are so intuitive to operate that they don't even ship with manuals...devices that have become a central part of people's every day lives, used for literally hours every day. You claim that these devices are difficult to learn, but reality says otherwise.

There is a very good reason why some of the intuitive functionality of those devices has appeared in some digital cameras (pinch and zoom gestures to name one.) They just need to get on with the rest of the job!
 
Hey waynec, Sony A7r4 fixed the menus a lot vs the older ones, but the camera you want is M10. Or both, since the Sony has better color accuracy when paired w/calibration than M10 imo/experience. quick edit..i like M10 better for b/w and A7r4 for color but the latter best with old Mamiya 55/1.8 glass for me gives best color accuracy; i bought mine on ebay w/Mamiya 35mm film camera for ~$125, kept lens, gave away camera and other 50mm lens that came with it...best buy on a lens i ever got. (Also what i experienced is the M10 had real close color, but shooting an artist's portfolio of many colors led me to my conclusions; now i'd like to hook the Mamiya to the M10 if possible.)
 
Archlich said:
...In case people want to have it really simple, today's manuals often start with a "quick guide" section of 3-4 pages letting you forget about all the "advanced features" and just shoot away, like you can always do with a X-Pro2.
Click to expand...


If you can forget about the advanced features then why bother with them?

The problem to me is that I cannot memorise 200 pages of fine detail, nor do I wish to carry a fat book with me and then consult it (in a field; in the rain; in a panic) when I want to take a shot before the light changes or the subject gives up waiting.

With the basic cameras I had to learn the art but there's not much to learn about using a camera, despite 2 or 3 years training course sellers claiming otherwise. Once you've learnt it you can pick up a camera and look at the quick guide and you're away.

But they put in all those wonderful features not everyone needs and then they design the things so that every now and then they give you a surprise. The other day I was out for a walk in the woods and took out the camera, switched it on and was reminded not to use it when the aircraft was taking off or landing. I don't need that...

Regards, David



PS Nor do I need reminding which end and where peoples' faces are; I learnt that before I could walk...
 
David Hughes said:
If you can forget about the advanced features then why bother with them?

The problem to me is that I cannot memorise 200 pages of fine detail, nor do I wish to carry a fat book with me and then consult it (in a field; in the rain; in a panic) when I want to take a shot before the light changes or the subject gives up waiting.

With the basic cameras I had to learn the art but there's not much to learn about using a camera, despite 2 or 3 years training course sellers claiming otherwise. Once you've learnt it you can pick up a camera and look at the quick guide and you're away.

But they put in all those wonderful features not everyone needs and then they design the things so that every now and then they give you a surprise. The other day I was out for a walk in the woods and took out the camera, switched it on and was reminded not to use it when the aircraft was taking off or landing. I don't need that...

Regards, David



PS Nor do I need reminding which end and where peoples' faces are; I learnt that before I could walk...
Click to expand...

LOL David, this plane things is superlative!

I believe this discussion, including my posts, tells us a lot about how society in general has changed and become much more complex.

Cameras, phones, TV sets, cars are now much more complex than a decade ago.

Of course a camera with many functions needs a control system which has to be learnt and possibly memorized. And in one way or the other this will be correlated to the camera's finctions, if many functions are availabe many options should be selected.

In my opinion the question is if we really need all these new functions? If I look at the pictures posted in our RFF gallery (I do almost daily) I don't see many images that require special or esoteric functions to be taken.

I understand there are cases where trackung AF is necessary, multiple shots/sec can help and so on. But in most of cases when you control exposure nad focus it's ok.

Anyway it is nice to have options, to each his own. I stay in the simplicity camp, which is one of the reason which brought me to the M Leica.
 
If I look at the pictures posted in our RFF gallery (I do almost daily) I don't see many images that require special or esoteric functions to be taken.
Click to expand...
Sure, but how many people post to this gallery, and look at the pictures? Very few do. It's an old-timers bubble.
 
When some manufacturer offers an affordable quality digicam as simple as my film cameras I will be the first in line to buy.

In the meantime I won't be holding my breath...

Chris
 
Out to Lunch said:
Sure, but how many people post to this gallery, and look at the pictures? Very few do. It's an old-timers bubble.
Click to expand...

I`m pleased you said it not me 😀
It seems to be getting more that way every week .
Same stuff being rehashed over and over again with fewer folk posting pictures .

I run an A7R2 and a Leica CL.
The CL is lovely in its simplicity but I have to say once you`ve used the Sony for a few frames that (nightmare) of a menu can be tamed .

It just requires more thinking .

I have more trouble remembering why I came in the kitchen .
 
Yes, considering 21 years have passed since the first 'pro' level digital SLR ($5580 in 1999 money) with increasing complexity and features but user interface remaining the same...breathe easy... your money is safe. 😀
 
Wenge said:
Hey waynec, Sony A7r4 fixed the menus a lot vs the older ones, but the camera you want is M10. Or both, since the Sony has better color accuracy when paired w/calibration than M10 imo/experience. quick edit..i like M10 better for b/w and A7r4 for color but the latter best with old Mamiya 55/1.8 glass for me gives best color accuracy; i bought mine on ebay w/Mamiya 35mm film camera for ~$125, kept lens, gave away camera and other 50mm lens that came with it...best buy on a lens i ever got. (Also what i experienced is the M10 had real close color, but shooting an artist's portfolio of many colors led me to my conclusions; now i'd like to hook the Mamiya to the M10 if possible.)
Click to expand...

That`s interesting .
I use my CL for colour and my Sony for BW but I`m an out of the camera sort of person .....
 
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