aizan
Veteran
Yeah, the Q was a collaboration between Leica and Panasonic. I don’t think Leica customers are all that interested in a fixed zoom, FF compact. That’s more of a Panasonic type of camera. Leica could sell a rebadged version, of course.
All in all, I’d say a Panasonic rangefinder-style FF mirrorless is possible, but a Panasonic Q-zoom would come first. The LX100 II needs a more upmarket successor, and Panasonic has a lot of work on its plate making new L lenses for its DSLR-style bodies.
All in all, I’d say a Panasonic rangefinder-style FF mirrorless is possible, but a Panasonic Q-zoom would come first. The LX100 II needs a more upmarket successor, and Panasonic has a lot of work on its plate making new L lenses for its DSLR-style bodies.
Honestly, I would be interested in your guess or mine. Let us just hope it is not a boring me too product. As far as Panasonic having a lot of work making lenses, I fail to see that being a problem if the cameras share a mount.
Yokosuka Mike
Abstract Clarity
If they came out with something similar in looks to the Panasonic Lumix DMC-LC1 (2004) that took the new "L" mount lenses...
That would be exciting!
All the best,
Mike
That would be exciting!
All the best,
Mike
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
Yeah, I will have to concede to your point about the sensor. I forgot it has to be purpose-built for wide angle rangefinder lenses. They oughta be able to come up with the finder, though, I should think. OK, 24, 28, 35, and 50mm framelines, then?
I had not even thought about the need to deal with wide angles on the sensor. I was just stating that they do not really make 12/18mp sensors these days.
Folks keep it to photography, not politics or personal attacks.
Its not like being rude or short tempered is going to solve any of the world's problems.
Its not like being rude or short tempered is going to solve any of the world's problems.
dexdog
Veteran
Thanks, dude.
Duofold RF
Well-known
Something non political, on cameraquest.com the lens links to RFF discussion are all broken ( I guess the link is the old site)
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
More practically, I could see some Chinese company making a digital M with an EVF (there have been rumors of such a camera being considered from Leica for some time}. There has also been talk that Leica may come out with a "low-cost" film M camera. It's not a stretch that this might simply be a [made in China] MP.
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
I could see a Chinese made Epson R-D1x clone, maybe scaled up with a FF sensor...some will say this will never happen as it is for a miniscule market but then again I never imagined Chinese made lenses for the Leica M mount like by TT artisan and others afew years ago.
Out to Lunch
Ventor
I'm not sure why China is suggested as a country of production, especially in light of the fact that a lot of manufacturers have moved out of China, or are in the process of doing so. They're moving into other Asian countries such as India, Thailand, Vietnam, and Malaysia. Cheers, OtL
You could be right, it could come from elsewhere, but China currently has equipment brands like TTArtisan and 7Artisans making M mount lenses. That is why I am thinking the next step for these companies could be a body. I am not aware of brands from the countries you have listed. It is one thing to manufacture for companies that sell for normal prices (maximizing profit by using cheaper labor), but it is another to be a brand and sell for a lot less like the aforementioned Chinese brands. That is my line of thinking.
I agree with this... this could be how it goes too.
Duofold RF
Well-known
It is the capacity, Infrastructure, know how, and has been OME for many brand names company. The Southeast Asia manufactures, some of them just Chinese company move to the lower lab cost areas.
ranger9
Well-known
I don't think either of these companies makes lenses... they design and market lenses, which are made by various original equipment manufacturers (OEMS) such as DJ Optical of Shenzhen, which is explicitly credited on 7Artisans lenses. And even though DJ Optical is coordinating the manufacturing process, the metal and glass parts most likely are produced by various subcontractors, and assembly may be by yet another subcontractor. It's the same way lots of other small-to-medium-volume tech products get made -- agreements are signed, CAD files get emailed back and forth, subassemblies get shipped, and eventually Amazon delivers a box to your door without anything we'd recognize as traditional "manufacturing" having taken place.
This works with specialty lenses because, as Thom Hogan has pointed out, fabricating metal parts can be done at moderate scales without a heavy investment -- the numerically controlled lathes and mills can be making lens components today, hi-fi components tomorrow, and home medical equipment next week if that's where the orders are.
A camera body is a trickier proposition. It needs a sensor, image processing electronics and storage and display hardware and software. Most manufacturers handle this with application-specific integrated circuits (ASICs), which is what all those trade names such as EXPEED, DIGIC, etc. refer to. I've got a data sheet somewhere saying that the setup cost to manufacture a single ASIC is the range of $5 million, so this is not something a small vendor can tackle on a speculative basis. (Pixii gets around the issue by using a field-programmable gate array, or FPGA, instead of ASICs; the FPGA is basically a "blank chip" that the designer can configure as needed. This makes low-volume manufacturing feasible because you don't have to pay up front to fab a bunch of ASICs, but FPGAs are relatively expensive so the cost doesn't come down as much with higher volumes.)
Of course if the demand is there, the same thing could happen as has happened in a lot of other high-volume electronics products: Some supplier could come up with a generic board that would provide all the functions needed for a basic camera, and then would-be "manufacturers" could configure this board to use whatever sensor, LCD panel, storage, and lens mount they could get at a price they were willing to pay. If the user would be content with focusing on the LCD or EVF, there'd be no reason such a camera couldn't be made with an M-mount, a Nikon or Canon or Sony mount, an Exakta mount, or any other mount for which the vendor could discern a market. (Rectaflex, anyone?) It could be relatively cheap, too, because most of the parts could be the same regardless of mount.
But would you buy one? You'd have to assume it wouldn't perform as well as a camera with its sensor stack customized for a particular lens mount, and with image processing handled by ASICs designed for the specific sensor's characteristics.
Ok, they do not make lenses, but they sell them and cheap. They are cheap brands that could cut the cost of a rangefinder camera. Maybe the thinking behind it is simple, but if anyone is going to do it…
Yokosuka Mike
Abstract Clarity
How many people that buy a Leica digital rangefinder actually know what they are buying? I’m just curious. If it’s a niche thing, and the average joe doesn't have a clue as to what a rangefinder is. Is it possible that a lot of M11 cameras are bought by ultra-rich people and put in the closet next to their designer brand bags, watches, diamond belly button rings, sapphire encrusted swizzle sticks and other needless things never to see the light of day?
Personally, I think that the modern day digital rangefinder camera is dead. Not the antique film ones… they’ll probably live forever. However, the new fresh in the box rangefinders… if you want one, and you’re not filthy rich, do you really need it?
I’m happy with the look alike EVF clone neo-classic cameras like the X-Pro3 and X-E4 cameras. They look like rangefinders, they’re much cheaper in price, good quality construction, and they can use old manual focus M-mount lenses and new computer chipped manual focus lenses (thank you Cosina).
I’m not looking for a fight and I'm not arguing with anyone. If you want, need, must have a true digital rangefinder, please ignore me and fork out the money, or wait forever for some company to make a cheap one.
Life is all about choices.
All the best,
Mike
Personally, I think that the modern day digital rangefinder camera is dead. Not the antique film ones… they’ll probably live forever. However, the new fresh in the box rangefinders… if you want one, and you’re not filthy rich, do you really need it?
I’m happy with the look alike EVF clone neo-classic cameras like the X-Pro3 and X-E4 cameras. They look like rangefinders, they’re much cheaper in price, good quality construction, and they can use old manual focus M-mount lenses and new computer chipped manual focus lenses (thank you Cosina).
I’m not looking for a fight and I'm not arguing with anyone. If you want, need, must have a true digital rangefinder, please ignore me and fork out the money, or wait forever for some company to make a cheap one.
Life is all about choices.
All the best,
Mike
Coldkennels
Barnack-toting Brit.
You should head over to Reddit. The Leica sub regularly gets posts from people who've bought an M10 or M11 and have no idea what it is or how to use it; you get questions like "I'm using a 28mm lens, but want to buy a 50mm. How do I tell the camera to show me the 50mm framelines?"
I get that everyone has to start somewhere, but for god's sake, if you're dropping a few grand on a camera, maybe educate yourself a bit on how it works first. Jeez.
Well Mike, as you know we both like some of the same cameras. You also have a lot of equipment. This is not replacing my Fujis. Or my Ricoh GRIIIx. Which is why I will not pay $9000 for the M11. However, I would spend $2500. I live in Chile. Our used market is little to none.
Now, do I NEED one? No. Do I like rangefinders and would I like it to be digital? Yes. I mean, we are on the rangefinder forum still right?
I see no issue with my thread. Sometimes we make these threads just out of boredom and curiosity. And before anyone says go out and photograph...I do, ALOT.
JeffS7444
Well-known
At least one key part of the Leica M11 is already made in China, and by definition, it's "Leica-quality", so it's all good. It sells for 200 USD, and so far as I can see, there are no 3rd party alternatives.
It's not for me to decide whether 200 USD for a Leica BP-SCL7 battery or 9000 USD for the M11 which uses it might represent a decent value to someone else, but I will say this: People spend a lot more than $9000 over time, in far less memorable ways.
It's not for me to decide whether 200 USD for a Leica BP-SCL7 battery or 9000 USD for the M11 which uses it might represent a decent value to someone else, but I will say this: People spend a lot more than $9000 over time, in far less memorable ways.