How many more Leica price increases will be too many?

[Olsen]

Ok I can agree with everything you said up there everyone, including you Don, you make you point with the ususal eloquence.


But let me ask everyone a question.


With inflation and all that and rising prices...you people out there making say....4500 dollars a month two months ago, are you making 6000 a month now? Of course not, its sort of the same here, the average salary here 15 years ago was about 15 yuan a month in the city, now its about 3-4000. Back in the day here a ice cream bar cost .5 jiao or half a yuan, today it costs the same, but prices for other things has changed accordingly unlike in some places.

Global currency rates aside the fact is that the price has gone up, your money is not worth more then it was before the price went up, so its still more expensive, and even if you money is worth more then it was a few months ago the jump is not so much to cover a 1700 dollar price increase is it?

Inflation in Europe is practically nill. Further; there has been no price increases of Leica equipment over here for the last 12 months, - at least. So, any price increases in the latest year or so in China and USA must be currency related. And contrary to what you say; both the Yuang and the $ has fallen towards the Euro in the last 12 months. Considderably, actually. - Ironically, that is partly the reason why inflation has been very low in Europe, - what we import - from China gets cheaper and cheaper....

 

[peter_n]

Well I am making more money than I did but part of that is because I moved to America. When I bought my first Leica four years ago I calculated how long it would have taken to save all my earnings for an equivalent body when I had my first job - that would have been 8.5 months. It took me 2.7 days to earn the money four years ago.

 

[jjovin]

Not to sound rash, but there is an alternative which is as good of a photographic tool or better (for many) than a Leica with a cloth shutter for about $1.5K. The lenses are around $1K, and they are just about as good as they get. Again, I am not trying to start an argument or a nasty discussion. I am just trying to point out that there are other choices out there for us mortals who want to actually use a camera as a photographic tool.
Regards,
Zoran

 

[peter_n]

Zoran we don't have nasty arguments around here... 😉 Yes there are plenty of alternatives to Leica and many Leica owners here use them. I use a Bessa and a Canonet for example as well as my M7s. Also I would think that most Leica owners on this forum actually use their cameras.

 

[ferider]

Zoran we don't have nasty arguments around here... 😉 Yes there are plenty of alternatives to Leica and many Leica owners here use them. I use a Bessa and a Canonet for example as well as my M7s. Also I would think that most Leica owners on this forum actually use their cameras.

And that is the only way as a consumer to have an impact on prices with too high of a margin: buy used or from the competition.

See my avatar.

Roland.

 

[ray_g]

Don't you think the price increase will drive the used equipment prices up as well, probably to a lesser degree?

 

[ray_g]

Let's put this into perspective. In 1968 I bought my first Leica gear that consisted of a 21 SA 3.4, 35 1.4, 50 f2 summicron v1, 65 elmar and mount, viso II, 90 Elmarit and 135 Hektor, 2 M2's and a M3. I remember some of the prices, the 21 used was $250, 35 summilux v1 new was $333, I think the 50 summicron was $200-225 used and don't remember the other lenses but the M2's were $250 each. Look at an inflation calculator and see hat this would be today and prices have basically tracked with inflation. Oh yes, I was making a whopping $14,000 a year in 1969-70 as a young freelance PJ while in college. My college tuition at the university of tennessee was roughly $130 / quarter. Let's not forget i bought a used 65 plymouth in 1968 that has 35,000 miles and paid $250 dollars. Go to the calculator and check it out in todays dollars. You'll be shocked!

Don, that $250 M2 in 1968 would be about $1500 in 2006, using the inflation calculator. That would approximate the M6's price in 2006, which appears to track with inflation. The MP's price , even without a price increase, is many times over.

 

[peter_n]

Don't you think the price increase will drive the used equipment prices up as well, probably to a lesser degree?

Yes. It has happened with certain lenses anyway. I bought a Noctilux about a year ago and it has doubled in value since. I think that's the extreme example but I did go on a lens buying binge last year and all of the prices seem to have increased though by varying amounts. Perhaps the advent of the M8 has been a factor but there is also an issue with the supply of new Leica lenses and that may be a factor in the price increases of used also.

 

[x-ray]

Don, that $250 M2 in 1968 would be about $1500 in 2006, using the inflation calculator. That would approximate the M6's price in 2006, which appears to track with inflation. The MP's price , even without a price increase, is many times over.

The M2 had no meter so add in the cost of the MR meter. I don't remember the exact price but I think I paid something like $90 for a used one. You're getting closer to the price of a used MP. Remember all of the pricing I gave with the exception of the 35 v1 summilux was used. Prices calculated for inflation aren't that far off of todays prices used. As a matter of fact you can buy a really nice M6 for much less than $1500.

 

[ferider]

Don't you think the price increase will drive the used equipment prices up as well, probably to a lesser degree?

Some yes, some not. For instance used Noctilux or Leitz asph lens
prices, or even simple Leitz LTM/M (a certain type that is codable for
the M8) adapters are going up. M2 prices are pretty constant, M3 prices
are at an all-time low. Non-Leitz RF stuff is not affected, really,
like used LTM/M Nikkor, Canon and CV lenses. Some classic
Leitz lenses, like Elmarits and Tele Elmar have been going down
in price. It all depends on the perception, whether it's a luxury
(sorry: "highest quality") item or not. In all that is obviously
a strong correlation to the M8 market/usability, of course.

Roland.

 

[Krosya]

So, if Leica prices are going up, do you think that all others, such as Cosina - Bessas and CV lenses and Zeiss ZM line will follow?

 

[peter_n]

So, if Leica prices are going up, do you think that all others, such as Cosina - Bessas and CV lenses and Zeiss ZM line will follow?

Not necessarily. For better or worse and for a variety of reasons, Leica has a cachet that the others don't.

 

[Ronald M]

Many lenses are back ordered, so we have not found that point yet. So the answer is when production is higher than sales. A bit more complicated, but that is the jist of it.

 

[peter_n]

You would think that Leica would be able to figure out what lenses might be in demand when their marketplace changed with the advent of the M8, no? 😕

 

[morgan]

Just a word about the used market. There are so many analogs between cameras and guitars and here's one that fits. Gibson is, in some ways, the Leica of guitars. And as Gibson increases the prices of their new guitars, the used market for most of their guitars follows. I remember you couldn't give away mid to late 70's Gibsons, now they've probably doubled (or even tripled) in value over the last few years. There's probably more of a fad issue around what guitars are popular, but many people see older (and not necessarily vintage) Gibsons as an investment, similar to Leica perhaps. And sometimes these things are just self-feeding machine with supply and demand and psychological perception of want. But to me, the premise that increasing new prices will pull up the used market would seem to be correct.