billh
Member
<Digital being digital who int their right mind is going to buy an M8 for roughly the price as a full frame Canon ?>
While I am not sure I qualify for “being in his right mind”, I have ordered the M8 and I also own both the 1D2 and 1Ds2 (full frame).
The Canons and the SLR lenses (I mostly end up using the 35 f1.4, 85 f1.2 and 300 f2.8 IS, with these cameras, although I own many other Canon and Leica SLR lenses with Canon adapters), and they are both quite large and very heavy. Obviously there are times where these cameras will be preferable to a rangefinder, but I am really looking forward to carrying an M and two or three lenses instead of toting the huge Canon/lens combinations around with me.
The other reason is the same as when I bought my first M4 over thirty years ago, and that is because (hopefully) it very quiet compared to a (then) Nikon F SLR, or the Canons today. Recently I photographed a piano concert with terrible lighting (different light sources and uneven lighting). I had to use the 1Ds2, and most exposures were at ISO 1600 and 3200. They provided a roped off area for me, and while it did provide the best view, it was also immediately adjacent to the audience seating. The sound of the camera mirror was really intrusive, and I hope the M8 shutter will be as quiet as the M7. I do have the Epson, but the shutter in that camera makes a metallic sound that is certainly noticeable, and I find the 6 MP limiting. I am also not fond of the 1.5 crop. Obviously I would prefer a full frame digital Leica, but I can make the tighter crop work on this camera.
By the way, a friend who ordered an M8 the same time I did also has a full frame Canon digital camera, and I have another friend (who owns a full frame Canon) who will buy it when it becomes available. I actually think the M8 will be attractive to people using the larger SLR systems.
While I am not sure I qualify for “being in his right mind”, I have ordered the M8 and I also own both the 1D2 and 1Ds2 (full frame).
The Canons and the SLR lenses (I mostly end up using the 35 f1.4, 85 f1.2 and 300 f2.8 IS, with these cameras, although I own many other Canon and Leica SLR lenses with Canon adapters), and they are both quite large and very heavy. Obviously there are times where these cameras will be preferable to a rangefinder, but I am really looking forward to carrying an M and two or three lenses instead of toting the huge Canon/lens combinations around with me.
The other reason is the same as when I bought my first M4 over thirty years ago, and that is because (hopefully) it very quiet compared to a (then) Nikon F SLR, or the Canons today. Recently I photographed a piano concert with terrible lighting (different light sources and uneven lighting). I had to use the 1Ds2, and most exposures were at ISO 1600 and 3200. They provided a roped off area for me, and while it did provide the best view, it was also immediately adjacent to the audience seating. The sound of the camera mirror was really intrusive, and I hope the M8 shutter will be as quiet as the M7. I do have the Epson, but the shutter in that camera makes a metallic sound that is certainly noticeable, and I find the 6 MP limiting. I am also not fond of the 1.5 crop. Obviously I would prefer a full frame digital Leica, but I can make the tighter crop work on this camera.
By the way, a friend who ordered an M8 the same time I did also has a full frame Canon digital camera, and I have another friend (who owns a full frame Canon) who will buy it when it becomes available. I actually think the M8 will be attractive to people using the larger SLR systems.
Bob Ross
Well-known
Peter, your reply is very representative of my possition.Peter Klein said:I am sitting on the fence right now. I am one of those people who just does better with an RF than with an SLR. So I *want* this camera badly. ...............And I could continue to post indecisive messages to various photo forums, thoroughly documenting my inability to choose between several imperfect alternatives rife with unknown factors.
--Peter
At the moment, I think we have a lack of significant information on which to make a commitment. What I see desireable here is that we will finally get a large sensor camera that is small and we will get a bright full sized viewfinder, in contrast to what we presently get with most DSLRs. Having some lenses makes this a viable possibility, that I might ignor otherwise. What compromises we may have to put up with on the fall off issue and our existing lenses, may have an influence on the desireability.
JonasYip
Well-known
Simon Larby said:
... Simon Larbalestier as in 4AD Simon Larbalestier?
I love your work ... the set of LP records on my shelf that I keep despite no longer owning a turntable has much of the 4AD work represented. Your current work is great too, but during a certain period of my life the 4AD images were very influential to my visual sense (and still are, really). Uh, thanks!
j
nrb
Nuno Borges
these military who use hi-def film only a few know, also have access to the latest in digital photography, and even Leica used to design special lenses to their special requirements in the old daysjaapv said:The military are notoriously conservative...
tkluck
Well-known
Naw, film is more fun.
Figured out that I could afford one, just don't want a digital.
Figured out that I could afford one, just don't want a digital.
T_om
Well-known
J. Borger said:
If you are selling any Canon L glass, give me a shout. My email address is tg.omeara(at)gmail.com
The 1Ds is old technology now, but still produces good files for studio shooting. I am interested in the glass though since you aren't using them.
As for the Leica... cameras are tools. If it has something I can't get with any other camera, I'll consider it. Otherwise, not.
Also, Leica is late to the game with digital and unless they have something amazing up their sleeves, i.e, the quality of the file produced is astounding, then the only people interested are going to be the die-hards that would buy ANYTHING with a "Leica" sticker on it.
Tom
ywenz
Veteran
pointless poll. Aren't most GAS attacks the result of seeing others' results with a particular piece of gear? The poll will be more accurate once the M8 comes out in the market.
I dont believe that. If you haven't used your Canon gear for 1.5 years, when why wait until the M8 comes out before you start selling them to build the funds? Your Canon stuff will only depreciate more with time... your claim just don't make sense.
J. Borger said:
I dont believe that. If you haven't used your Canon gear for 1.5 years, when why wait until the M8 comes out before you start selling them to build the funds? Your Canon stuff will only depreciate more with time... your claim just don't make sense.
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J. Borger
Well-known
ywenz said:
I already sold my TS lenses and the 85 1,2L.
I still own the 70-200 IS, 300 f4, 135 f2.0, 35 1.4L & 50 1.4.
Since i can still write off investments (tax deduction) on the gear and prices of the lenses are stable it would have been foolish for me to sell earlier. Besides i really had to see if there would ever be a new digital RF after the R-d1 .....
For the 1Ds ... it just hurts to sell a camera i payd almost 8000 Euro for .. for let's say 2000- 2500 Euro at the most.
My photography changed completely since i started using a RF camera.
If you might wonder how i substitute those long lenses for lenses in the 35-75mm range.
Hope this makes sense for you!
S
Simon Larbalestier
Guest
JonasYip said:
Yes that's me. Thanks for the kind words and encouragement J.
sdai
Established
J. Borger said:
In fact, the classic 1Ds is still the very best DSLR Canon has ever made in terms of image quality at base ISO ... and I mean it's better than the 1Ds Mark II.
sf
Veteran
I think it is amazing that we have so many people already pre-ordering the M8.
T_om
Well-known
J. Borger said:
I am serious about buying the glass if you still want to sell. I need another 70-200 for my second shooter and as a backup and would also consider the 135/2.0 as that is one Canon lens I have not used but read glowing reports about. The 50/1.4 is, I believe, overrated in most of what I read. At least my copy is not a very stellar performer and it has been to CPS for a look-see. I am not a long-lens shooter, but I know someone that would probably buy the 300/4.0 too.
Tom
T_om
Well-known
shutterflower said:
This is not a jab at anyone's veracity, but you will find Internet polls often reflect fantasy more than fact.
Tom
JohnM
Well-known
While spending $5,000 on a camera shows questionable judgement at best, at this point, I believe I will buy an M8. (Questionable judgement is almost a hobby of mine.) The only thing that gives me pause, other than the $5K, is the crop factor.
I deal with the 1.6x in my Canon DSLR system without suffering too badly - I use a 35/1.4L as my 'normal' lens and make use of one of the digital-only wides quite often. (Tokina 12-24...wonderful lens.)
It will be more of an issue with an M8. I currently use an M3 and use nothing wider than 50mm - whatever the cost of the camera, I will have to invest in a 35 Summicron as well to compensate for the crop.
(Tom - I have found the 50/1.4 to be a little overrated as well. The copy I had felt and sounded very cheap...it was not a bad lens, but it was not what it has been made out to be either.)
I deal with the 1.6x in my Canon DSLR system without suffering too badly - I use a 35/1.4L as my 'normal' lens and make use of one of the digital-only wides quite often. (Tokina 12-24...wonderful lens.)
It will be more of an issue with an M8. I currently use an M3 and use nothing wider than 50mm - whatever the cost of the camera, I will have to invest in a 35 Summicron as well to compensate for the crop.
(Tom - I have found the 50/1.4 to be a little overrated as well. The copy I had felt and sounded very cheap...it was not a bad lens, but it was not what it has been made out to be either.)
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
The option "I'm seriously thinking about it -- once it comes out, I'll make my decision" plan isn't there.
Oh well.
Oh well.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
I am with JohnM, a 99.9366% (the remainder is I have a very good Canon EF 50 1.4 copy )
)kmack
do your job, then let go
I'm having too much fun with large format (4x5) right now. For me it is not so much about taking the picture it is the craft of making a photograph. I am interested in the traditional process. I am considering things like Vandyke process and variants. My rangefinders are now used for shots that you just can not get with a view camera or for scouting for shots that I can later go back to and shoot with the big gun. I could use a digital instead of film, but I love the process, the unique look of film.
A dSLR maybe, a digital M is just not in my plans.
A dSLR maybe, a digital M is just not in my plans.
harmsr
M5 Nut
I love my M's and basically deal with the DSLR (D200) only as needed.
As I hate a big camera and big lense, the M works very well for my normal style of shooting which is 75% with a 50mm lens. However, I hate scanning. I also find that the Raw file from the D200 is often cleaner than the film scan from my Nikon 5000 ED scanner.
From a workflow (ease of use) standpoint, I much prefer the digital file over developing, scanning, and printing. The majority of my shots do need to be provided in an electronic format. After having seen the results out of the DMR and thinking that it compares favorably with film, I am very excitedly awaiting the digital M.
To me the digital M will be very close to my perfect camera.
I recently sold off some lenses and my spare M5 body in preparation for the digital M. However, my M5 is staying and I bought an MP3 body recently so that I can always shoot film also.
So yes I'm guilty and have one on pre-order.
Ray
As I hate a big camera and big lense, the M works very well for my normal style of shooting which is 75% with a 50mm lens. However, I hate scanning. I also find that the Raw file from the D200 is often cleaner than the film scan from my Nikon 5000 ED scanner.
From a workflow (ease of use) standpoint, I much prefer the digital file over developing, scanning, and printing. The majority of my shots do need to be provided in an electronic format. After having seen the results out of the DMR and thinking that it compares favorably with film, I am very excitedly awaiting the digital M.
To me the digital M will be very close to my perfect camera.
I recently sold off some lenses and my spare M5 body in preparation for the digital M. However, my M5 is staying and I bought an MP3 body recently so that I can always shoot film also.
So yes I'm guilty and have one on pre-order.
Ray
J. Borger
Well-known
Hello Simon,sdai said:
You are not the only one stating this
It's a pitty the 2nd hand prices are not accordingly
A rangefinder just suits me better.
- i see different and compose different
- the small package is such a joy .... i can't go back to carrying a 1 series cameras with assorted lenses
- i just love the tonality of the B&W pictures i get from mounting older lens designs on the R-D1
I am a one camera- one lens shooter nowadays
All i need fits in the pocket of my coat!
KInd regards
Han
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
General disclaimer:This post is based on a generalisation and was not written with any specific member, real or imagined, in mind.
It seems to me that there is an increasing number of posts rationalising decisions made with any argument imaginable, spurious or not. In addition it seems other members are challenged to justify choices they made. Unfortunately I bait easily, so I decided to defend my choice for the M8 -once-
*start of r(f)ant*
When Leica first announced their intention to build a digital M I swung between:"Why?, the M is perfect as it is"and "I want it now!". So I decided to analyse my photographic hobby.
I have been taking photo's for 53 years now. Starting with a 6x9 box camera,I progressed through a succession of Agfa Click's and Clack's to my fathers Agfa Silette. The first real camera I bought was an Exacta SLR, followed by an Olympus OM1 set. Then I bought a used M3 and since then I was never without a rangefinder: M4,M6,M6TTL despite occasional digressions to midformat photography.I even shot a Safari using a Mamiya 645 and 500 mm & 1.4xconv. Beside that I shot SLR's, Leica R3,R4,R5,R7, mainly for wildlife.
Then digital arrived and I traded my Leica R system for a Canon 10D and was very happy with the result until a local camera shopowner (he knew what he was doing) gave me a Digilux2 "to try out". The Canon is relegated to photography needed for my work and occasional wildlife and I only use the Digilux2 and M6TTL.
So I found four things:
1.It seems that my whole photographic progression has been a quest for excellence (at any rate of equipment).
2.I seem to be irrevocably wedded to the Leica M system for over 30 years.
3.I found I was delighted to regain my freedom to "darkroom" my colour photography again when digital arrived, and I digital gave me back my inspiration, but I hate scanning. So I will have to go digital for 90%.
4. For me current digital quality is as good or better than film
This can only lead to the conclusion that the M8 is just right for me.
Now the main purpose of this post is to explain that it is utterly useless to try and tell me that I should not buy the M8 because
a. It will be worth only 10$ one week after I purchase it.
b. Leica will introduce a "full frame" M9 within three months and if not Leica it will be Suzuki.
c. Digital is horrible and will never replace the Daguerrotype.
d. The 250 MP 12000 ISO sensor is just around the corner.
e. This camera is overpriced by 900%.
as all these considerations are as irrelevant to me as my reasons are irrelevant to anybody else.
*end of r(f)ant*
And I wish everybody happy shooting with the camera of his/her choice!
It seems to me that there is an increasing number of posts rationalising decisions made with any argument imaginable, spurious or not. In addition it seems other members are challenged to justify choices they made. Unfortunately I bait easily, so I decided to defend my choice for the M8 -once-
*start of r(f)ant*
When Leica first announced their intention to build a digital M I swung between:"Why?, the M is perfect as it is"and "I want it now!". So I decided to analyse my photographic hobby.
I have been taking photo's for 53 years now. Starting with a 6x9 box camera,I progressed through a succession of Agfa Click's and Clack's to my fathers Agfa Silette. The first real camera I bought was an Exacta SLR, followed by an Olympus OM1 set. Then I bought a used M3 and since then I was never without a rangefinder: M4,M6,M6TTL despite occasional digressions to midformat photography.I even shot a Safari using a Mamiya 645 and 500 mm & 1.4xconv. Beside that I shot SLR's, Leica R3,R4,R5,R7, mainly for wildlife.
Then digital arrived and I traded my Leica R system for a Canon 10D and was very happy with the result until a local camera shopowner (he knew what he was doing
) gave me a Digilux2 "to try out". The Canon is relegated to photography needed for my work and occasional wildlife and I only use the Digilux2 and M6TTL.So I found four things:
1.It seems that my whole photographic progression has been a quest for excellence (at any rate of equipment).
2.I seem to be irrevocably wedded to the Leica M system for over 30 years.
3.I found I was delighted to regain my freedom to "darkroom" my colour photography again when digital arrived, and I digital gave me back my inspiration, but I hate scanning. So I will have to go digital for 90%.
4. For me current digital quality is as good or better than film
This can only lead to the conclusion that the M8 is just right for me.
Now the main purpose of this post is to explain that it is utterly useless to try and tell me that I should not buy the M8 because
a. It will be worth only 10$ one week after I purchase it.
b. Leica will introduce a "full frame" M9 within three months and if not Leica it will be Suzuki.
c. Digital is horrible and will never replace the Daguerrotype.
d. The 250 MP 12000 ISO sensor is just around the corner.
e. This camera is overpriced by 900%.
as all these considerations are as irrelevant to me as my reasons are irrelevant to anybody else.
*end of r(f)ant*
And I wish everybody happy shooting with the camera of his/her choice!
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