How Nudity in Photographs (or paintings) Can Be Conceived as Art?

[dave lackey]

a discussion soon to be closed...the bs and games are getting thick...

No games here. On my last job, I had a long discussion with my boss about how I was treated as such only because as an employee I was being used for his desire and need of my intellectual work and was only willing to pay what he perceived was a street value. I see little difference and the fact that I was involuntarily "let go" when he was finished only made my decision to leave the design industry that much easier. 😎

The point I am making here is everyone has a different perspective. Respect for each other's POV is important here.

 

[antiquark]

I think in it's highest form, art can "enlighten" in some way. (As opposed to being merely enjoyable.) Of course, enlightenment is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Roger Hicks]

No games here. On my last job, I had a long discussion with my boss about how I was treated as such only because as an employee I was being used for his desire and need of my intellectual work and was only willing to pay what he perceived was a street value. I see little difference and the fact that I was involuntarily "let go" when he was finished only made my decision to leave the design industry that much easier. 😎

The point I am making here is everyone has a different perspective. Respect for each other's POV is important here.

Dear Dave,

There seems to have been a bad stretch of people not doing this lately.

A friend of mine, who was a prostitute when I met her (no, that wasn't how I met her -- she was married to another friend), said, "Why should I prostitute my mind for 40 hours a week when I can earn the same money prostituting my body for 4 hours?"

I didn't agree with her then, and I don't agree with her now. In fact, I find it hard to believe that she agreed/agrees with herself. But I respect her right to that view -- rather more than I respect the right of most men to pronounce on her choices.

It is however astonishing that a discussion of the nude in art should move so quickly to prostitution. There are some VERY strange values in play here.

Cheers,

R.

 

[johne]

This is a problem that, no doubt, the answer to which is hard.
johne

 

[jljohn]

40 responses before anyone even attempts to answer the OP's question! And at least several of the respondents have studied (or teach) art--surely you should be prepared to intelligently answer the OP's question. Simply responding "it is entirely subjective" is not helpful either. It may be subjective, but does noting that it is subjective let you off the hook for having, and sharing, your own view of what art is?

Also, this question may seem inane or uninteresting to some, but to others (Jock Sturges comes to mind), it is of great importance.

I honestly have not thought about this enough to have or offer an intelligent answer to the OP's question, but I would love to read what others of you think, whether it is only for yourself (i.e. believing that art is subjective) or a universal principle (i.e. art is objectively defined)!

 

[rxmd]

It may be subjective, but does noting that it is subjective let you off the hook for having, and sharing, your own view of what art is?

Maybe people think that the question "what is art" is so downtrodden that it becomes somewhat meaningless to discuss.

Also the question was really about nudity, and I just don't see what is so special about it that we need to ask whether nudity in particular can be art, any more than we would ask the same about, say, a human face, or a vase of flowers, or a landscape.

 

[Rayt]

I think we in the West have seen enough nudity to be able to think for ourselves what is acceptable (so called "art") and what is taboo (so called "porn") without the need to articulate parameters not that it is possible to do so anyway. I wouldn't have heard of Mapplethorpe, Sturges nor Mann if not for all the ado so thank you busy bodies.

 

[thomasw_]

Or "bricklayer", for that matter.

no, this is equivocation. they have completely different functions...

 

[newspaperguy]

A perfection of means
and a lack of aims
seem to be the main problem.
A. Einstein

Wait... what were we talking about?
As an alum of the Chicago Academy of Fine Art
and the Art Institute of Chicago
I can tell you with the utmost conviction:

I don't know what the hell you're talking about... or why.
This sounds for all the world like a sophomoric
how many X on the head of a pin.

 

[hteasley]

Maybe people think that the question "what is art" is so downtrodden that it becomes somewhat meaningless to discuss.

Not meaningless per se, but more that if you've had this discussion before, you know where it can go:

1. Arrive at a defensible definition of Art. It will be vague and unsatisfying for many (see my previous post, #41). I find it a beautiful definition, and it has affected the way I live my life. But many folks do not pursue a true definition of Art, they pursue a definition that allows them to declare $ThingTheyDoNotLike as Not Art. A defensible definition of Art never lets them do that.

This discussion involves many tangents, as a person proposes a specific qualifier ("Art communicates", "Craft has a purpose, Art doesn't", whatever, there are tons of them), and then someone else shoots it down with a great example of something that fails the qualifier, but everyone agrees is Art. You arrive at at something similar to the definition I proposed in #41, and some people are unhappy.

2. You fail to get beyond the subjective, "I know it when I see it", "How can this $Crap be Art?" level of discussion, and everyone is unhappy.

In my view, the OP is so laden with baggage that only through heroic effort can it be dragged it into a dispassionate realm of debate, where folks can be civil and constructive posts made.

 

[zumbido]

no, this is equivocation. they have completely different functions...

Yes, they do have completely different functions (at least in your opinion and mine). That's the point. While tlitody is playing at obtuseness and trying to suggest with a straight face that he wasn't talking about prostitution, he obviously was... but was trying to stretch the definition of such to include modeling. At which point it could just as easily include bricklaying. That is to say, it's a silly and meaningless semantic game--redefining terms--that people of his stripe want to get into instead of thinking about a real argument for their views.

 

[zumbido]

LOL, if you want to play silly bu*gers then I didn't use the word prostitution and you in your typically preconceptive way jumped to that conclusion. You are guilty of exactly what you are accusing me of. There's a word for that too.

You avoided the point entirely and are dissembling on top of it, so, cheers to you. Enjoy the rest of your day. 🙂

 

[filmfan]

Well first you have to define art in a way which is universally accepted, which is an impossible task.

 

[Ezzie]

I find it strange that western culture (a horrible generalisation I know) has no problems in depicting violence in all its forms and nastiness, and through any medium, but goes off the hinge the moment nudity is discussed. A paradox in no uncertain terms.

 

[Pablito]

Is it wrong to enjoy this kind of art?

YES, absolutely.

 

[Pablito]

a discussion soon to be closed...the bs and games are getting thick...

Do it already.....

 

[sevo]

I find it strange that western culture (a horrible generalisation I know) has no problems in depicting violence in all its forms and nastiness, and through any medium, but goes off the hinge the moment nudity is discussed. A paradox in no uncertain terms.

Haven't noticed that attitude around here. Midwestern culture, maybe?

Sevo

 

[filmfan]

I think what Ezzie meant by "western culture" was America specifically. I don't know how anyone who has been to (or even heard about) the European Western world could possibly say that the entire western world is anti-nudity.
It was clearly a typo.

 

[raid]

I love art.
It is as simple as that.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

And with Raid's last post, good place to end this discussion.

The comments regarding "Roman Catholic Church fig-leaf Campaign", and "I think what Ezzie meant by 'western culture' was America specifically" is enough to make me and other members uncomfortable with the discussion, as some members noted in posts.