nikonosguy
Well-known
how do we find out who a leica was first sold to? is there any way of finding anything more than the guy who owns one before you?
how would one trace the original owner of a barnack
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kbg32
neo-romanticist
Why would you find this necessary?
nikonosguy
Well-known
curiousity, ya carpetbagger --
hope all is well, keith... how's ethan...
all is busy here in big memphis
hope all is well, keith... how's ethan...
all is busy here in big memphis
lonemantis
Well-known
I actually tried something similar with my M3 awhile ago. I started by asking the guy I bought it from if he remembered the previous owner. He did, and I managed to get in contact with him. After that, the trail went cold, so I was only able to trace its history back 8 years or so. I suspect it might be impossible, given all the dealers that sold Leicas 50-60 years ago probably don't have records that old. (if they even still exist!)
The benefit/curse of Leicas (and other expensive, well-made luxury brands like Rollei, Hasselblad, etc.) is that they can have many owners over the course of their lifetime, which you don't see as much with more mainstream brands. People are much more likely to resell a Leica that's worth $1000, whereas a Pentax K1000 that's worth $20 might just be put into storage instead.
The benefit/curse of Leicas (and other expensive, well-made luxury brands like Rollei, Hasselblad, etc.) is that they can have many owners over the course of their lifetime, which you don't see as much with more mainstream brands. People are much more likely to resell a Leica that's worth $1000, whereas a Pentax K1000 that's worth $20 might just be put into storage instead.
Vince Lupo
Whatever
I was lucky in tracing mine, and she has an interesting story too...
raid
Dad Photographer
I bought my M3 from the only past owner. I have the factory receipt with QC check.
goamules
Well-known
Pretty easy if your camera is presentation engraved like this one I have: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128086
Or if the inside of the leather case has the guys name on it, like a 1931 IID I have. I found he was a mining engineering student in the 30s.
Or if the inside of the base plate has a repair shop sticker on it like this one I had: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1923358&postcount=12
What does YOUR camera have on it? If nothing, how do you suppose you would figure it out? Reverse osmosis? Psychic hotline? DNA testing?
Or if the inside of the leather case has the guys name on it, like a 1931 IID I have. I found he was a mining engineering student in the 30s.
Or if the inside of the base plate has a repair shop sticker on it like this one I had: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1923358&postcount=12
What does YOUR camera have on it? If nothing, how do you suppose you would figure it out? Reverse osmosis? Psychic hotline? DNA testing?
bgb
Well-known
nikonosguy
Well-known
didn't leica keep sales records of the original ltms? i've heard of many forum members finding some provenance (govt issue, etc) off some magic list --- people like leicatom and toma verifying iiic steppers and other exotic models... i
david werbeloff
Member
Hello Nikonosguy & All,
In 2004 I bought a IIIa from KEH. Even with their conservative grading system I couldn't believe the beautiful condition the camera was in. Being curious, I contacted Leica in NJ to see if they could tell me where and to whom the camera (a 1936 serial number) was originally sold. After some time had elapsed I did hear back that the camera was sold through a dealer (Wunsch) in Frankfurt on June 10, 1936. That specific but not to whom.
I am pretty sure that the records in Germany are intact and accurate because I have the original import certificate from the Leica II which my dad bought out of the box from Leitz in London in 1939. Sure enough, they matched the serial number of that camera to Leitz in London with the correct date. Again, no name.
It is interesting to speculate on the path your Leica has traveled before it landed in your hands and what it might have witnessed.
Best,
David
In 2004 I bought a IIIa from KEH. Even with their conservative grading system I couldn't believe the beautiful condition the camera was in. Being curious, I contacted Leica in NJ to see if they could tell me where and to whom the camera (a 1936 serial number) was originally sold. After some time had elapsed I did hear back that the camera was sold through a dealer (Wunsch) in Frankfurt on June 10, 1936. That specific but not to whom.
I am pretty sure that the records in Germany are intact and accurate because I have the original import certificate from the Leica II which my dad bought out of the box from Leitz in London in 1939. Sure enough, they matched the serial number of that camera to Leitz in London with the correct date. Again, no name.
It is interesting to speculate on the path your Leica has traveled before it landed in your hands and what it might have witnessed.
Best,
David
goamules
Well-known
You mean factory ledgers of where they shipped cameras? Perhaps, but even if they did, they would show what dealer they shipped the camera too, not who bought it from that dealer. Remember, from the 1930s to the 1960s they'd made and shipped close to a million cameras. Any "list" would be volumes and volumes, and they were probably destroyed each decade or so.
L David Tomei
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I suppose i was lucky when my immaculate IIIf arrived along with a sheaf of documents that showed that the camera had been purchased by a French diplomat in Berlin. It came along with receipts, customs declarations, even the original box, tissue, and Leitz outer brown paper wrapping. From this I found the diplomat's entire curriculum vitae online as well as his photograph.
Now I wonder if all this information should be placed on the web site. I still have mixed feelings about using previous owner's names. Certainly I believe that the history of these cameras is practically as important as the camera itself but how we handle that information is still a matter of some debate.
Now I wonder if all this information should be placed on the web site. I still have mixed feelings about using previous owner's names. Certainly I believe that the history of these cameras is practically as important as the camera itself but how we handle that information is still a matter of some debate.
traveler_101
American abroad
Yes, it's very interesting to be able to trace the cameras, though creating a fiction around the story--or part of it--would be even better. The beginning of the story of David's camera sounds a bit like the mystery of the Maltese Falcon.
L David Tomei
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I hadn't thought of that... But you must admit, it beats talking about bokeh's, cleaning marks, serial numbers, and squinty viewfinders, after all. ; )
HuubL
hunter-gatherer
I got my 1939 IIIb from a fellow Photopoints member from Germany. He got it from his father, a Romanian doctor, who received it during WWII out of gratitude from a German officer for treatment.
My beautiful black and nickel 1932 Leica III I got from an old lady who had it from her father, the original owner. It had been laying in a drawer for decades. Apart from the slow times, it still functions nicely. I'm hesitant to have it CLA'd, afraid that it will damage the black paint on the screwheads.
Leicas M1, MDa and two M4s I got after the clean out of my university's photolab. After decades of photographing scientific graphs, diseased plants and bacterial cultures they are now happy to shoot street and landscapes in daylight.
My beautiful black and nickel 1932 Leica III I got from an old lady who had it from her father, the original owner. It had been laying in a drawer for decades. Apart from the slow times, it still functions nicely. I'm hesitant to have it CLA'd, afraid that it will damage the black paint on the screwheads.
Leicas M1, MDa and two M4s I got after the clean out of my university's photolab. After decades of photographing scientific graphs, diseased plants and bacterial cultures they are now happy to shoot street and landscapes in daylight.
Sunti
Established
The former owner may appear in your dream one night and ask to have it back. 😱
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Wartime camera's sometimes could have their provenance revealed by asking mr. James Lager, the author of several Leica books. But I'm uncertain as to whether that 'hotline' is still open to him, I recall having read that he only takes requests like that for very rare and unusual items nowadays since his access to the 'volumes and volumes' of ledgers was restricted too. Story was, Leitz had to keep an extra employee to just process all the requests...😀
Each camera can still be tracked back to the dealer that it was sold to, no matter when. Talk about 'Deutsche Gründlichkeit'... There is a Thiele book on Zeiss production figures for lenses too, I own a copy of it and it lists all batches of lenses made since their earliest days.
Oh, if only other brands had done that... Canon RF, Nikon RF, Leotax, Komura RF, Nicca, KMZ... Alas, not so...
David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi,
One of the advantages of ebay is that often cameras are sold by the son or daughter (or else the grandson or grand daughter) of the original owner. The disadvantage is that the camera will have been stored for years by then. But you do get a story with it that sometimes rings true. Mostly that happens when the age of the camera is known and can be checked against other facts in the story. So far I've managed it with three cameras.
Regards, David
One of the advantages of ebay is that often cameras are sold by the son or daughter (or else the grandson or grand daughter) of the original owner. The disadvantage is that the camera will have been stored for years by then. But you do get a story with it that sometimes rings true. Mostly that happens when the age of the camera is known and can be checked against other facts in the story. So far I've managed it with three cameras.
Regards, David
nikonosguy
Well-known
the fantasy is that all barnacks were carried into combat by either germans or robert cappa or that it belonged to any number of 20th century greats at some point ----
i'm getting mine from a forum member who got it from another forum member -- and so forth --- hopefully it will be here before easter
i'm getting mine from a forum member who got it from another forum member -- and so forth --- hopefully it will be here before easter
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
I have had a couple of Leica's were I know the provenance. One was a Leica 1f with a red scale 50f3.5 - viewfinder, case etc. I did buy from the original owner and he had the paper work from Bremen were he bought it in 1951, just before stepping on the boat to Canada.
The 2nd was a Leica II with a Hektor 50 mm f2.5. The owner was an artist who had bought it new in late 1931 - but as his eyesight was getting bad, he wanted to get rid of it. Again, being very exact, he even had the original invoice from a Montreal dealer.
I still have the camera - use it often enough to keep it smooth and lubricated. At some time in its past, it had been dropped and housing and baseplate has a dent in it - makes it impossible to use FILCA/IXMOO cassettes. I had to persuade him to take $350 rather than the $300 he wanted - though he had to pay for the coffee.
There are ledgers in Wetzlar that will tell you to which importer cameras were shipped (and in Germany sometimes there are notes as to which major dealer they went). Rarely do you find individuals listed - usually "legacy" cameras given to someone.
The 2nd was a Leica II with a Hektor 50 mm f2.5. The owner was an artist who had bought it new in late 1931 - but as his eyesight was getting bad, he wanted to get rid of it. Again, being very exact, he even had the original invoice from a Montreal dealer.
I still have the camera - use it often enough to keep it smooth and lubricated. At some time in its past, it had been dropped and housing and baseplate has a dent in it - makes it impossible to use FILCA/IXMOO cassettes. I had to persuade him to take $350 rather than the $300 he wanted - though he had to pay for the coffee.
There are ledgers in Wetzlar that will tell you to which importer cameras were shipped (and in Germany sometimes there are notes as to which major dealer they went). Rarely do you find individuals listed - usually "legacy" cameras given to someone.
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