How would you get the smallest grain with Tri-X in Rodinal/Adonal?

[Juan Valdenebro]

Lots of us have used Tri-X vastly, both in HC110 and Rodinal, not to mention D76/ID11… I have exposed it from ASA100 to ASA3200 with good results for years… From a wild pull at ASA100 on direct sun to keep sunny and shadows areas tonally close, to a wild push at ASA3200 with 2 hours stand to control contrast and grain a bit… Passing through ASA250/320 for real speed respect, ASA400 for anything anytime, and mild ASA800 and ASA1600 pushing for character with dull/low light scenes…
As I have a pair of new unopened Adonal bottles, that’s the only developer I will use for the next year or two… Now that Plus-X is not being made anymore, I was thinking which low speed film to order… But today I thought hey, what if I order Tri-X only, such a flexible lovely film, and find a way to use it –apart from its usual fast film/push shooting use– as a slow film for fine grain too, obviously crisp because of Rodinal, but for rich detail, tonality and sharpness, without huge DOF, for, say, f2.8-f4-f5.6 use with daylight, both for direct sun and shadows/overcast…
With the finest possible grain in mind, how would you do it?
Which EI? Dilution? Temperature? Constant agitation or stand/semistand? Development time?
Kind of the most technical Tri-X/Rodinal recipe…
Thanks for all comments!
Cheers,
Juan

 

[helen.HH]

hey Juan , Hello !

glad to see you Posting again 😉

As for lower grain, i do little to no AGITaTION ...😛 ...really be Gentle 🙂

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Hi Helen! Nice sitting couple shot from behind, with NYC/shades on the wall you did, by the way! I saw it on another thread a few days ago... So classy and romantic and honest from a street photography point of view... A special one for sure, with elegant mystery.. Congrats!
About this Tri-X/Smallest Rodinal grain thread, I agree... Agitation must be one of the most decisive factors here... Thanks!
Cheers,
Juan

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

I've heard some people talk about sharpness loss both with underexposure and overexposure... I never did a test on it with any film... Would it be a good idea to shoot it in the ASA200-400 range?
Cheers,
Juan

 

[Ronald M]

Expose at 200. Cut 400 development time by 20%. No water rinse or short stop. fix and wash

 

[wallace]

very important: keep temperature below 20°C.

 

[teddy]

Expose at 200. Cut 400 development time by 20%. No water rinse or short stop. fix and wash

Is this to minimise agitation even with water? I did this once by mistake and I thought I would have ruined the film. Result - fine.

 

[Ronald M]

Even a short rinse rinse with ss or water has the effect of diluting the developer which makes more grain. It is a noticeable change with D76 1:1. Since you are working with Rodinal, you will need to run your own test. Grab a grey scale and run 3 shots both ways looking at middle grey. Rodinal does not always work like other developers regarding grain dilution. It has to be a controlled repeatable test so everything is exactly the same. I use a set up with studio flash.

I always use fresh fix. Fix previously used more than 24 hours old always has some silver precipitate (black crud} at the bottom of the glass fix bottle. Some will inevitably end up on the next film and no amount of even vigorous washing will remove it. It can be pushed off with a wet cotton bud if you examine each frame with a magnifier WHILE STILL WET. Re foto flow the whole film. Once dry, forget it.

There is nothing in your home that will 100% filter this out. Cotton from first aid is best.

Use up the fix on test prints or just toss it. I do wonder how large labs used to handle this in the past. I don`t think I ever sent film out since I started in late 50`s. Yes I am old.

I found plus and pan x nice with Rodinal. Tri x no so much so. Tri x with D76 1:1 is still magic . I initiated my son a few years back and he was shocked. I used to use a Leica/Stockler 2 bath that was magic also. It does not work WELL with new tri X. Tried modifying it more metol to compensate for thin emulsion, but no luck.





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[Juan Valdenebro]

Wow, Ronald, nice unput! It's the first time I hear about it...
Wallace & Teddy, I think you're right... We´re getting close to a recipe: low temperature, very little agitation, exposure above box speed, no stop, no rinse, direct fresh fix...
What about dilution? Stand or not?
Cheers,
Juan

 

[ChrisLivsey]

A lot of photographers add sulfite to Rodinal to reduce the grain- (cut) Patrick Gainer writes: “It turns out that 4 g/l sodium ascorbate does a lot of good added to 1:50 Rodinal. A lot better than 100 g/l of sulfite.” Those who are searching for a fine-grain version of Rodinal should give this a try. (Please note: you should add sodium ascorbate, not ascorbic acid,"
From: http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Rodinal/rodinal.html

Adding Salt (Sodium Chloride)
http://www.streetphotographyblog.co.uk/906/

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

That's cool, Chris!
Does anyone know (visually) the effect of adding sodium ascorbate? As in the unblinkingeye article there's no image for the results, I wonder if we get a smaller "rodinal" grain, or if, shame, grain is a bit dissolved in any way... Or perhaps close to HC-110 grain?
About the test, thanks for posting, Chris, and thanks to Kevin too! It's amazing there's no change in grain no matter if we use straight or stand development... Same grain if salt´s used, with a bit more contrast... As we'll probably be using generous exposure without too high contrast issues, straight development and normal agitation could be used... At least it seems...
Cheers,
Juan

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

In a second view, I see there's more grain in the stand/salt crop, and the most controlled grain is in the stand/no salt crop... Looks like stand will be in the recipe...
Looking at the scene (direct sun) and the final image (controlled contrast) it's easy to imagine very flat overcast negatives, so we'd need more contrast someway, but it shouldn't be salt nor agitation, because both grow grain... Maybe a longer stand... Any idea?
Cheers,
Juan

 

[Dana B.]

Why ding a great film like Tri-X with Rodinal? A bag of D-76 runs about $7. Doesn't seem like a high price for a perfect match.

 

[Bill Clark]

Any lower speed film in your cabinet?

Tri X has a certain look to it and part of the look is the grain.

I have used TMX100 and I like the results when exposing in medium format and develop with a fine grain developer like mic X or Perceptol.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Why ding a great film like Tri-X with Rodinal? A bag of D-76 runs about $7. Doesn't seem like a high price for a perfect match.

Hi Dana,
Some of us prefer Tri-X in Rodinal instead of D-76, because the latter produces mushier grain and less sharpness. Tri-X in Rodinal is a perfect match for those who use it, because of its great tonality. Crisp grain is very photographic to some of us, compared to other developers that hide grain making photographs visually closer to other more modern printing methods.
A good enlarger print from Tri-X in Rodinal is a beauty, and very hard to beat.
Cheers,
Juan

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Any lower speed film in your cabinet?

Tri X has a certain look to it and part of the look is the grain.

I have used TMX100 and I like the results when exposing in medium format and develop with a fine grain developer like mic X or Perceptol.

Hi Bill, yes, I want Tri-X and its grain, and I want it clean, clear and crisp as Rodinal does... I'm just trying to make Tri-X look closer to Plus-X, that's no longer produced.

Cheers,
Juan

 

[Dana B.]

Juan,

OK, nice description. I get it, thanks. I've always wondered about the passion for Rodinal, having always dev'd Tri-X in D-76 and HC-110.

 

[Bill Clark]

Would fp4 plus work?

Similar to Plus-X

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Totally! Great film. Just as good as Plus-X... I used it a lot, as the official school films when I cursed my career were both classic grain Ilford emulsions: HP5+ and FP4, on ID-11, by the way.
I just want to pay less... 🙂 But you're totally right: If I can't make Tri-X look like a slower film, I'll end up ordering Tri-X and FP4.
Cheers,
Juan

 

[Tom A]

TriX and Rodinal will always give you a bit accentuated grain. You can't really change the size of grain - just the look of it. Rodinal is a surface" developer and "etches" the silver halides and this gives the edge enhancement effect. MQ developers contains Sodium Sulphite, which as you say "mushes" up the grain a bit - the edge definition is less pronounced, hence it looks smoother.
The Sodium Solphite addition to the Rodinal does give you less accentuated grain. Bill Pierce has a formula which uses Rodinal in an almost saturated 100 grams/1000 ml. I have used it and it works best with the 1:50 solution Rodinal and SS 100 gr/1000 ml. I usually cut the time by 10-15% too.
Rodinal is sensitive to agitation, once every 60 sec is probably the maximum (2 flips of the tank).
Sometimes in the past I tried the Vitamine C addition (ascorbic Acid) but I can't find the test negs at the moment - don't remember it as being a major improvement.
There fine grain developers that you can use - but most of them carry the penalty of speed loss and sometimes excessive film fog.
You obviously is going to have test (and let the rest of us know how it is working out - called "passing the buck").
One formula to try would be D23 as a two bath (stock D23 for 4 min. continious agitation and 3 min is a Borax (20 gram/1000 ml) stand development) Very smooth - but higher base fog.