HP5+ developing fail

[MaxFrank]

So today I decided to try and develop a roll of film I had stored in the fridge for about 3 months+. When trying to spool it onto a Paterson reel it just didn't want to cooperate. Every time I tried it just got stuck about halfway. I tried multiple reels of different ages so it was definitely something with the film. After trying about 10 times plus I managed to rip the film in half at about the point it always got stuck. Luckily it was just a test roll and the the few shots that might be worth weren't harmed but I still find it weird this happened. Has anyone else ever experienced something like this?

 

[Pete B]

Possibly condensation caused the problem. I'd try leaving it out of the fridge for a day prior to spooling.
I use stainless steel spools now.
Pete

 

[MaxFrank]

I didn't take it directly out of the fridge, I did let it get to room temperature for a few hours

 

[Canuk]

I found that sometimes loading 35mm film onto my Patterson reels I can have similar problems. I recently started to just clip the corners at the start of the roll (just ever so slighltly) so that there was a slight bevel to the leading edge of the film. It seems to have corrected the problems w/ binding mid roll for me.

 

[MaxFrank]

I found that sometimes loading 35mm film onto my Patterson reels I can have similar problems. I recently started to just clip the corners at the start of the roll (just ever so slighltly) so that there was a slight bevel to the leading edge of the film. It seems to have corrected the problems w/ binding mid roll for me.

Ah I have heard that before, I'll try that next time!
Thanks.

 

[Clint Troy]

Plastic reels. That's the problem. That's why I avoid those at all cost. Too many problems over time.

Condensation? No way. A film takes 1 minute to thaw.

 

[Bill Clark]

Try starting from the other end of the film.

Sometimes I find a little piece may be frayed on the film can get suck and when I start from the other end, all is well!

Paterson reels are wonderful!

 

[sepiareverb]

Plastic reels. That's the problem. That's why I avoid those at all cost. Too many problems over time.

Condensation? No way. A film takes 1 minute to thaw.

Just hold it your hand right?

 

[Peter_Jones]

I find that just having my hands in the darkbag can cause enough humidity for film to stick to a plastic reel - the more annoyed I get, the worse it gets. I need an air-conditioned changing bag for my sweaty palms 🙂

 

[Clint Troy]

Just hold it your hand right?

15 seconds in your hand. Then Up to your cheek. Still cold? Add another 5 seconds in your hand.

Film occupies 90% of the film canister. Therefore not even a quarter of a cubic inch of air.
Film is dry, therefore no water to freeze. Therefore almost 0% condensation possibility.
The humidity in the air for 2-3 cubic inches (film canister) equals to less then one drop of water. Less then one drop of water.
A 36 exp. Roll takes about 1 hour to dry in ambient air (normal room temp @ normal humidity levels).
If an entire roll of film that's been completely soaked takes about one hour to dry, a frozen but dry roll of film taking up to 90% of the film canister shouldn't take more then 15 seconds to thaw with absolutely 0% chance of condensation.

There it is, the whole truth.

 

[Roger Hicks]

15 seconds in your hand. Then Up to your cheek. Still cold? Add another 5 seconds in your hand.

Film occupies 90% of the film canister. Therefore not even a quarter of a cubic inch of air.
Film is dry, therefore no water to freeze. Therefore almost 0% condensation possibility.
The humidity in the air for 2-3 cubic inches (film canister) equals to less then one drop of water. Less then one drop of water.
A 36 exp. Roll takes about 1 hour to dry in ambient air (normal room temp @ normal humidity levels).
If an entire roll of film that's been completely soaked takes about one hour to dry, a frozen but dry roll of film taking up to 90% of the film canister shouldn't take more then 15 seconds to thaw with absolutely 0% chance of condensation.

There it is, the whole truth.

Well, not exactly the whole truth. As soon as the film is outside the canister, there's a lot more moisture around. Especially if it's being handled with damp hands (and all hands are more or less damp). And the moisture may not settle evenly. Pick up a cold mirror: look at the condensation from your hands. Also, gelatine isn't 'dry'. It depends on water content for its flexibility.

The truth is, I don't know enough to give a 100% reliable answer. Still less, I suspect very strongly from your answer, do you.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Clint Troy]

Roger,

1 micron of gelatin. The absorption of humidity of 1 micron of dry gelatin spread on a roll of film equals to about 1 drop of water.

Let's stop kidding ourselves.

But if you are so inclined, please show us a Picture where condensation appears. I'm not talking about a condensed camera or lens (where cold air hits hot
Air in between the elements or the film chamber but merely about a roll of film with less then 1/4 cubic inch of free air inside).

You just can't come up with such an example. It doesn't exist.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Roger,

1 micron of gelatin. The absorption of humidity of 1 micron of dry gelatin spread on a roll of film equals to about 1 drop of water.

Let's stop kidding ourselves.

But if you are so inclined, please show us a Picture where condensation appears. I'm not talking about a condensed camera or lens (where cold air hits hot
Air in between the elements or the film chamber but merely about a roll of film with less then 1/4 cubic inch of free air inside).

You just can't come up with such an example. It doesn't exist.

We don't need condensation. We need gelatine that is swollen and sticky enough to jam in a plastic reel: possibly one that is in less than perfect condition. Are you arguing from (shaky) theory or from practice?

Cheers,

R.

 

[Pete B]

Well, not exactly the whole truth. As soon as the film is outside, the canister, there's a lot more moisture around. Especially if it's being handled with damp hands (and all hands are more or less damp). And the moisture may not settle evenly. Pick up a cold mirror: look at the condensation from your hands. Also, gelatine isn't 'dry'. It depends on water content for its flexibility.

The truth is, I don't know enough to give a 100% reliable answer. Still less, I suspect very strongly from your answer, do you.

Cheers,

R.

And, as mentioned before, the humidity in the bag. Warm air meets slightly cooler film (particularly the film that was towards the middle of the roll) and forms moisture. Moisture takes longer than a minute to evaporate, perhaps exacerbated by being slightly absorbed by the emulsion. Emulsion now sticky.
But, yes, it's probably just a case of those annoying ball bearings getting stuck, and the film's cut end causing friction. I think the suggestion to round off the ends is good, and I've heard of people giving the Patterson reels a number of sharp taps to free the ball bearings from jamming the film.
Pete

 

[Moto-Uno]

I use Patterson reels about 90% of the time and should I forget to thoroughly wash those pesky little bearings I eventually start hating my Patterson reels,they may look clean,but they're not!!! ( an old toothbrush and soapy water)
Regards,Peter

 

[Joakim Målare]

I hate the plastic reels. I have a complete Paterson two reel tank for anyone who offers me one LPL 120 stainless steel reel. I already have one but need another.

After a number of situations like the above, in frustration I twisted the film and reel into a cracked pile of scrap and threw it all in the bin. Bought stainless reel for 35 mm the day after. Problem solved.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I hate the plastic reels. I have a complete Paterson two reel tank for anyone who offers me one LPL 120 stainless steel reel. I already have one but need another.

After a number of situations like the above, in frustration I twisted the film and reel into a cracked pile of scrap and threw it all in the bin. Bought stainless reel for 35 mm the day after. Problem solved.

Yes. Smash kit that doesn't work, so you aren't tempted to try to use it again. Personally, I've never had a problem with Paterson reels, but I'm obsessively careful -- even transferring the film to stainless steel for the final wetting agent rinse.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Photo_Smith]

Film is dry, therefore no water to freeze. Therefore almost 0% condensation possibility.
There it is, the whole truth.

You might like to look into that one a little closer, read some literature about films hydroscopic properties and the colloidal suspension we incorrectly determine to be an 'emulsion' and you'll see it's not as dry as you think.

Also condensation doesn't need the object it forms on to have a high water content. A mirror contains no water, that though is a separate argument.

 

[Clint Troy]

Roger,
Are you mixing polymers and water???

A plastic bag is flexible yet it's not humid and it will never dry enough to be brittle.

Ah, whatever, Roger.

 

[Roger Hicks]

You might like to look into that one a little closer, read some literature about films hydroscopic properties and the colloidal suspension we incorrectly determine to be an 'emulsion' and you'll see it's not as dry as you think.. . .

For example, http://cool.conservation-us.org/jaic/articles/jaic36-03-002.html

Cheers,

R.