HP5+ developing fail

[Clint Troy]

Metal reels can be loaded even if they're completely wet. Which is Fantastic.

 

[sepiareverb]

Also, common sense and experience dictates that, even without measuring, there's no way a canister of film goes from <10C to 20C+ in less than 60 seconds. Conversely, if it were true, it would mean film is frozen within 2 minutes of putting it in the freezer, right? Crazy talk.

Um, you're contradicting Clint with this? Why exactly? Haven't we enough evidence that the laws of thermodynamics as we understand them are no longer relevant by his stating that 15 seconds is enough time to warm film 40°C? From freezer to camera in 15 seconds. That is all that is needed. If we need more time we obviously incompetent.

Film cannot freeze. It isn't food. Have I got it right Clint?

 

[wolves3012]

Bob,

Please take into account that aluminum (or whatever the cassette is made of) is metal and highly conductive. Goes from 0-20 to _ 20 in seconds.
And acetate doesn't freeze.

So yes, 15 seconds is more then enough.

The canister is metal and warms through very rapidly, correct. The film inside it, however, is a poor conductor of heat and is layered not completely tightly (and even if it is, that just leaves an air-gap). I'd lay serious money that after 15 seconds of holding a canister in your hand, the core is still at -18C (if that's what it started at). It will take an awful lot longer than 15 seconds to reach anywhere near hand-temperature. Minutes, many of them, to reach hand temperature through to the core.

 

[RObert Budding]

Bob,

Please take into account that aluminum (or whatever the cassette is made of) is metal and highly conductive. Goes from 0-20 to _ 20 in seconds.
And acetate doesn't freeze.

So yes, 15 seconds is more then enough.

And that conductive metal contains very cold non-conductive film. So there's a cold thermal mass, and there's no way that it would reach thermodynamic equilibrium in 15 seconds. FYI - I was trained as a chemist, and I've completed graduate-level thermodynamics courses. But not to worry - I've notified my professors that heat flows much faster than they had led me to believe.

 

[Clint Troy]

And that conductive metal contains very cold non-conductive film. So there's a cold thermal mass, and there's no way that it would reach thermodynamic equilibrium in 15 seconds. FYI - I was trained as a chemist, and I've completed graduate-level thermodynamics courses. But not to worry - I've notified my professors that heat flows much faster than they had led me to believe.

No.
Plastic, like styrofoam, doesn't freeze. Thought about that?

But this conversation has become nothing more then useless and tiring.

Please thaw your films with super extra care for hours. Or days.
Me, I'll continue to throw it in my cameras directly from the freezer. And my images will continue to be amazing.

What else can I say.

 

[Photo_Smith]

Clint,
Both CTA and Estar used in films can indeed freeze an become brittle (-30°C), film isn't just plastic it is coated with a hydroscopic layer which readily absorbs moisture such as humidity from the atmosphere that has formed because of the condensation.
I can tell you from experience that 4x5 dupe film pulled from the freezer and opened for use on an urgent job caused condensation and that made some sheets stick together.

What it is important WRT this is relative humidity in the atmosphere causes condensation not the water content of the of the object.

Your it 'comes up to temperature' in 15 seconds is wholly false. The reality is the film when frozen to say -20°C it will when brought in a atmosphere containing moisture become a condensing agent.

Just like the mirror in the bathroom while you shower on a cold day or your car windscreen on icy days. Unless you warm up those objects to a similar temperature to the ambient air (which contains the moisture) i.e use a de-mister you'll see humidity transfer from the warmer air to 'condense' on the colder surface.

Just follow the recommendations, the ones brought to us through years of research-don't just trust to luck!

 

[sepiareverb]

No.
Plastic, like styrofoam, doesn't freeze. Thought about that?

I have indeed and have deduced that plastic is frozen at room temperature. It melts when heated. I can melt plastic by holding it in my hands for 10 seconds. 😎

 

[Clint Troy]

Photo smith, plastic doe not freeze. it warms up in seconds to normal temperature. Best example? Winter tires.
But besides, we're talking a 1 micron thickness layer. Now tell me, who are you trying to kid?

Bob, how long does it take for one single car-key to warm up in your hands right out from the freezer?
Do the test, please.
the plastic will feel warm in 2 seconds. The metal key in about 10.

Can you do that simple test? Or you prefer to continue this silly game?

 

[Clint Troy]

Are you comparing mirrors and walls in bathrooms during a hot shower to a roll of film?
When i take a hot shower, even the toilet paper becomes completely humid and the roll starts curling. Which is absolutely normal.Drops of water form on my walls. But I'm not sure how this is relevant to our conversation.

But let's make a real comparison, not silly ones, please. Here's my real life test that I have done a few minutes ago:

I have over 500 rolls of film in my freezer and about 5 rolls of polypan-f (That I hate). Just now I took one 36 exposure Polypan-f from the freezer and I unrolled it completely in a zip, at room temp.
I carefully looked at the whole film. I saw absolutely no condensation (which was completely expected not to show up).
I breathed on the roll and a slight cloud of condensation formed and it immediately disappeared. I breathed again, and again, and again and again. About 5 times. The condensation didn't last more then 1 second each time.
The film itself was as warm as the room.
The canister got at room temperature after a few minutes (When in my hand, it gets warm in seconds).

I'd like you to try this.

So, Photosmith, this was my real life example. There was, of course, no boiling shower running anywhere close to me.

 

[sepiareverb]

Photo smith, plastic doe not freeze. it warms up in seconds to normal temperature. Best example? Winter tires.
But besides, we're talking a 1 micron thickness layer. Now tell me, who are you trying to kid?

Bob, how long does it take for one single car-key to warm up in your hands right out from the freezer?
Do the test, please.
the plastic will feel warm in 2 seconds. The metal key in about 10.

Can you do that simple test? Or you prefer to continue this silly game?

And likewise, lets see the PanF examples.

To the key, it feels cold again 10 seconds after I let go of it. I may have "warmed" it's surface but it's core holds the cold. It's also covered with condensation. I never knew keys were made of water! Think of that water bottle frozen solid: it thaws leaving a core of ice. And it becomes covered with condensation. And no, film is not water nor is the water bottle, so maybe the laws of thermodynamics are just that: laws?

As to plastic not freezing and winter tyres: why then are there then winter tires? Special versions which do not freeze. Hmmm. Scam I suppose. Well what isn't really. All kinds of things get more brittle when it gets colder and they freeze, you live in Montreal you should understand the cold unless those thermophillic hands are just a byproduct of a total thermophillic being. You must thaw the sidewalk with your footsteps! Wow. I really must watch this. Too bad about ice fishing tho. It really is fun.

I can bend spoons and open film cassettes with my mind. This truth cannot be disputed despite my not being able to supply any proof. None is needed. I say it, it must be so. Sadly, the bending also happens to wipe SD cards. Perhaps I accidentally popped those PanF cans on brianentz while working in my darkroom.

 

[sepiareverb]

Are you comparing mirrors and walls in bathrooms during a hot shower to a roll of film?
When i take a hot shower, even the toilet paper becomes completely humid and the roll starts curling. Which is absolutely normal.Drops of water form on my walls. But I'm not sure how this is relevant to our conversation.

An how much warmer is the AIR in said bathroom during this shower than before it? 10°C? 20°C? Surely not 40°C. And yet there was condensation.

But let's make a real comparison, not silly ones, please. Here's my real life test that I have done a few minutes ago:

I have over 500 rolls of film in my freezer and about 5 rolls of polypan-f (That I hate). Just now I took one 36 exposure Polypan-f from the freezer and I unrolled it completely in a zip, at room temp.
I carefully looked at the whole film. I saw absolutely no condensation (which was completely expected not to show up).
I breathed on the roll and a slight cloud of condensation formed and it immediately disappeared. I breathed again, and again, and again and again. About 5 times. The condensation didn't last more then 1 second each time.
The film itself was as warm as the room.

So that's how you load the camera and not let the film sweat. I get it now. Yank it from the cartridge, breathe on it and load. Got it. FInally some sensible answers.

 

[Photo_Smith]

Photo smith, plastic doe not freeze. it warms up in seconds to normal temperature. Best example? Winter tires.
But besides, we're talking a 1 micron thickness layer. Now tell me, who are you trying to kid?

Bob, how long does it take for one single car-key to warm up in your hands right out from the freezer?
Do the test, please.
the plastic will feel warm in 2 seconds. The metal key in about 10.

Can you do that simple test? Or you prefer to continue this silly game?

Clint I'm sure you don't want to continue this; but yes you can freeze film and plastics. Most plastics become brittle when you freeze them beyond the point where the chemical bonds (called covalent bonds) break down; n.b it is not the same point at which water freezes.
With film it is around 30°C for CTA and 50°C for ESTAR even your winter tyres have temperature limits-freeze them enough they will shatter.

Are you comparing mirrors and walls in bathrooms during a hot shower to a roll of film?
When i take a hot shower, even the toilet paper becomes completely humid and the roll starts curling. Which is absolutely normal.Drops of water form on my walls. But I'm not sure how this is relevant to our conversation.

This is the problem; you can't see the link between the high humidity of the air (in the shower) and the condensing effect of the mirror (lower temperature than the air)
Grade school science tells us how condensation forms, in the example I posted you can't understand the film is cold like the mirror and the air has higher humidity than the air in the freezer–it's pretty simple basic science to note condensation will form.

Hence the reason warm up times are quoted by Kodak in the table I posted, and they are not the one second you quote.

The amount of condensation formed is a product of the air humidity and the temperature of the film-you cannot and should not use a film straight from -20°C into the camera (unless the humidity in the air is close to zero).

It's that simple just follow the guidelines given by Kodak and you will be fine. Anything else means you are just taking unnecessary risks.

 

[clayne]

Photo smith, plastic doe not freeze. it warms up in seconds to normal temperature. Best example? Winter tires.
But besides, we're talking a 1 micron thickness layer. Now tell me, who are you trying to kid?

Bob, how long does it take for one single car-key to warm up in your hands right out from the freezer?
Do the test, please.
the plastic will feel warm in 2 seconds. The metal key in about 10.

Can you do that simple test? Or you prefer to continue this silly game?

Holy **** man. You're comparing surface temperature as if it's the core temperature of the object?

Rubber tires aren't even plastic either.

As to plastic not freezing and winter tyres: why then are there then winter tires? Special versions which do not freeze. Hmmm. Scam I suppose. Well what isn't really. All kinds of things get more brittle when it gets colder and they freeze, you live in Montreal you should understand the cold unless those thermophillic hands are just a byproduct of a total thermophillic being. You must thaw the sidewalk with your footsteps! Wow. I really must watch this. Too bad about ice fishing tho. It really is fun.

I can bend spoons and open film cassettes with my mind. This truth cannot be disputed despite my not being able to supply any proof. None is needed. I say it, it must be so. Sadly, the bending also happens to wipe SD cards. Perhaps I accidentally popped those PanF cans on brianentz while working in my darkroom.

Thanks for the grins. 🙂

I think I've figured out the missing link as to Clint never suffers any issues with condensation: he keeps the cameras in the freezer too.