Roger Hicks
Veteran
As I can't afford either a BMW M3 or a Noctilux, my opinions are somewhat academic. But I can much more readily imagine buying the Noctilux, and not just because it's cheaper. I'd like a Noctilux; I don't really want a German rustbucket motor-car, though I'd prefer it to a horse. I own a BMW motorcycle, and have driven (for a reasonably extended period -- a few weeks) some BMW car or other: it was 15 years ago and I've forgotten which one it was. For the same money (or less) I'd buy a Hesketh. For fun, among motor-cars, I preferred the XJS I also had for a few weeks.kevin m said:Ah, I see Roger's trotted out his "sour grapes" defense of the Noctilux again.
I didn't say that the Noctilux was a bargain. Rather I said (or implied) that there's no real alternative. If you can REALLY afford it, and you want it, you buy it. If you don't want it, you don't buy it at any price, and if you can't really afford it, you can make up some story about how it's not worth the money to you. I could probably scrape up the money for one if I wanted it badly enough, but I don't want it anything like that badly. Like you, I have other priorities. This means I can't afford it.
If I had a million pounds ($2,000,000 or so) I'd like flying lessons and a rebuilt Spitfire. So? I can't afford that either. But if I wanted a 50/0.85 general-purpose lens, and could afford it, then yes, I can imagine asking Zeiss to build me one on a cost-plus basis (I'm reasonably confident they could do it, and so are they). That would be before I bought the Spitfire.
As for the point raised by another poster (not you) that if I can't afford one, I don't have much to contribute either, my sole point in joining in here is to put the opposing point of view to most who can't afford one. I can't either, but I'm not crying sour grapes about it.
After all, if it's not worth the money to you, no-one is forcing you to buy one.
Finally, after trying a LOT of fast lenses, I find the current C-Sonnar to be pure magic at a bargain price and I can live without the extra stop (or half-stop against f/1.2). Sure, I'd buy a Noctilux as well if I could afford one, but I don't miss it all that much.
Cheers,
R.
kevin m
Veteran
Well, that's a fair point, I 'spose. Any word on how much radioactive glass is in the Noctilux, though?
Dan States
Established
What's so funny about the Noctilux is that it can demand these prices with absolutely no evidence that it makes pictures any better than any other 50mm lens. The vast majority of photo's taken with this lens are of kids, friends, relatives and stationary objects because they are the only ones who will sit still while you twiddle the overdamped focus ring trying to get sharp focus with a nats eyelash worth of depth of field. It's surely not a "Decisive Moment" kind of lens, and for landscapes any F2 Planar or Summicron has richer contrast and better color balance.
Of course, if I ran Leica I'd jack the prices up every month until I saw a drop in revenue. The "Value of the dollar against the Euro" argument is pretty lame on a lens made in Canada that has gone from 2K to 6K usd in 4 years. Folks, the dollar isn't THAT weak!
I had my Noctilux fun and for 2k it was an "experience", but I'll be spending my 6k traveling to places to TAKE pictures.
Of course, if I ran Leica I'd jack the prices up every month until I saw a drop in revenue. The "Value of the dollar against the Euro" argument is pretty lame on a lens made in Canada that has gone from 2K to 6K usd in 4 years. Folks, the dollar isn't THAT weak!
I had my Noctilux fun and for 2k it was an "experience", but I'll be spending my 6k traveling to places to TAKE pictures.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Addendum:
I was just discussing this with my wife, Frances Schultz, talking about the lenses we'd most like to have that fill gaps in our outfits.
For me: Thambar, 16-18-21 Tri-Elmar, Nokton, 12/5.6 Voigtländer, 15/2.8 Zeiss (in that order)
For her: 16-18-21 Tri-Elmar, Nokton.
And as she said, "It strikes me as odd to spend this much time worrying about the equipment you want, instead of taking pictures with the equipment you have."
Cheers,
R.
I was just discussing this with my wife, Frances Schultz, talking about the lenses we'd most like to have that fill gaps in our outfits.
For me: Thambar, 16-18-21 Tri-Elmar, Nokton, 12/5.6 Voigtländer, 15/2.8 Zeiss (in that order)
For her: 16-18-21 Tri-Elmar, Nokton.
And as she said, "It strikes me as odd to spend this much time worrying about the equipment you want, instead of taking pictures with the equipment you have."
Cheers,
R.
ampguy
Veteran
good question
good question
Who has a geiger counter handy??
good question
Who has a geiger counter handy??
kevin m said:Well, that's a fair point, I 'spose. Any word on how much radioactive glass is in the Noctilux, though?
D.O'K.
Darren O'Keeffe.
Surely an assessment of the value of goods depends in part upon comparing the costs of manufacture to the sale costs. So does anyone know what it costs Leica to make these lenses? Or what profit margin the middlemen (dealers) take? The answers might assist an objective assessment of whether the items represent good "value" for the end buyers (in narrow financial terms of course--obviously "value" can here carry a myriad of other meanings...).
Regards,
D.O'K.
D.O'K.
Regards,
D.O'K.
D.O'K.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
It is a lot better than any other lens at f/1, though...Dan States said:
I've used it quite a lot at full aperture -- indeed, there's not much reason to use it any other way -- and I find it quite useful to be able to halve shutter speeds as against an f/1.4, especially at ISO 2500 equivalent on the M8.
Of course you can use shutter speeds twice as long, but that's an invitation to camera shake, and at reasonable distances -- I've mostly used it at a few metres -- d-o-f is acceptable at f/1. With the M8 at 2500 or with Delta 3200 in the MP and shutter speeds in the 1/15-1/60 range it gives you pics that are hard to take otherwise.
If you don't shoot by 'available darkness', it's a waste of money. If you do -- well, if you can afford one, you buy one.
Cheers,
R.
ampguy
Veteran
There you go Roland!
There you go Roland!
~300 more slots for Teslas in 2008. However, if you don't get a Tesla, buy my Noctilux and help save the planet anyways. You can trade in your fast cycle for an electric Honda or Vespa, and I'll have a bumper sticker made for you that says "My other Bike is a Noctilux!"
There you go Roland!
~300 more slots for Teslas in 2008. However, if you don't get a Tesla, buy my Noctilux and help save the planet anyways. You can trade in your fast cycle for an electric Honda or Vespa, and I'll have a bumper sticker made for you that says "My other Bike is a Noctilux!"
ferider said:Unless you consider buying a Tesla
Funny how Noctilux threads invariably turn out.
usayit
Well-known
Roger Hicks said:
Exactly... this forum and just about any hobby oriented forum always has discussions on how <insert item here> is so expensive and not worth it. It is all relative.
I think the M8 is way over priced... people still buy them...
I think the noctilux is over pried... people still buy them...
I think Starbucks coffee is way over priced... people still line up at the door.
I think no commuter car is worth more than $20k... people still drive expensive BMWs, Mercs etc to and from work.
I think no watch is worth more than $20 bucks... people still buy Rolex's.
I think no starter home in Northern Jersey is worth more than $200k... look around almost all of them are more than $300k.
See the pattern? Each starts with the word "I". I wanted a couple expensive Leica items... I sacrificed (don't drive expensive car, don't have expensive stuff, work two jobs) to help finance them. It is all relative and internalized... (people start to get really into trouble when everything they want "has" to be expensive).
What I do see as a bit disturbing is the how much things (Leica as well as other items) has increased in the US over time. I really start to actually care about expensive items when those "expensive" items are basic necessities.
In regards to the noctilux, I purchased mine for $2200 (used, mint) a couple years ago. I had to really work and sacrifice to afford it. Now? sheesh... even used is out of my reach. Some goes for my house purchased in 1999.... no way I can afford one now.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
usayit said:
You left out horses ... some people pay millions for horses based purely on who the sire was. For me to buy a Noctilux would be akin to having one of these horses ... I would only ride it around the paddock and tell myself how great it was as it trotted ... I would never let it gallop!
What's wrong with these Noctilux threads? ... I reckon they're excellent reading and the discussions are entertainingly feisty at times.
[edit] I'm glad to hear you say that about the Sonar Roger ... that's firmly on my shopping list once I've sold a few other lenses ... that and a 25mm!
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Hacker
黑客
usayit said:
The moral of the story? You should have bought 2 or more lenses and 2 or more houses. Then you will have a tidy wad of cash lying some where, maybe a Swiss bank?
kevin m
Veteran
They don't really rust anymore, not like the bad-old days. We're buying used, FWIW, and letting some other chump take the depreciation hit. I'd rather pay my mechanic for maintenance than pay interest to the bank.
Life is short and I think we should sample its pleasures. I guess I get more pleasure from the ripping sound BMW's inline 6 makes than I do swirly lens bokeh, but if the latter makes a person happy then he'll get no argument from me. As long as he doesn't claim his lens is magic at every aperture, I won't claim the BMW can go 200 mph and get 50mpg doing it.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I reckon as a comparison a $6000.00 50mm lens is more like a Bugatti Veyron ... not an M3 BMW. I would see the Beemer as being more like a Zeiss Sonar ... expensive compared to a Nokton but very refined and good value for the performance you're getting!
R
rpsawin
Guest
My Noktons are looking better all the time.
Bob
Bob
usayit
Well-known
Hacker said:The moral of the story? You should have bought 2 or more lenses and 2 or more houses. Then you will have a tidy wad of cash lying some where, maybe a Swiss bank?
Hehehe lol.. Actually that was my intention in regards to the house. Buy one.. save up (leverage home equity).. buy a 2nd for either rental or primary. I was well on my way to accomplishing that feat until something ruined my plans..... a massive layoff in 10/2001 (from one of the largest computer corporations) followed by 2 years of unemployment. By the time, I recovered... housing went through roof and even the most hard working professionals in my industry can no longer afford a decent home.
At this point... the Noctilux is one of my best "non-investments"... isn't that silly? I laugh at that fact each and everytime I shoot with it.
Hacker
黑客
kevin m said:They don't really rust anymore, not like the bad-old days. We're buying used, FWIW, and letting some other chump take the depreciation hit. I'd rather pay my mechanic for maintenance than pay interest to the bank.
Life is short and I think we should sample its pleasures. I guess I get more pleasure from the ripping sound BMW's inline 6 makes than I do swirly lens bokeh, but if the latter makes a person happy then he'll get no argument from me. As long as he doesn't claim his lens is magic at every aperture, I won't claim the BMW can go 200 mph and get 50mpg doing it.
Get the M5!
usayit
Well-known
rpsawin said:
YUP!! You can buy a whole bag of Voigtlanders for the price of a Summilux... isnt' that the kicker. I like Leica glass BUT I am extremely impressed by the two Voigtlanders that I acquired during a recent camera swap... 35mm nokton and 28mm ultron.
usayit
Well-known
btw.. I was once lusting over a early 90s 911 porsche at the local speed shop one day. Even brought the wife to see it in person.... her response?
You can afford it if you sell some of the Camera stuff including the Noctilux.
She was right and I'm still driving my Dodge. hehehe lol
You can afford it if you sell some of the Camera stuff including the Noctilux.
She was right and I'm still driving my Dodge. hehehe lol
ampguy
Veteran
maybe
maybe
but show me a Nokton or any lens that can render images like these:
http://matsumura.smugmug.com/gallery/4080402#237707369
(all from the Costco scans with no editing except for the 8x10 ratio one that was cropped to remove the end of roll thingy, and the 2 or 3 deer print ones that were bumped up with picasa feeling lucky for better contrast).
and I'll eat my words.
maybe
but show me a Nokton or any lens that can render images like these:
http://matsumura.smugmug.com/gallery/4080402#237707369
(all from the Costco scans with no editing except for the 8x10 ratio one that was cropped to remove the end of roll thingy, and the 2 or 3 deer print ones that were bumped up with picasa feeling lucky for better contrast).
and I'll eat my words.
rpsawin said:
Abbazz
6x9 and be there!
rxmd said:Or an EOS 5D ($1900 new) with a couple of Canon EF lenses, such as a 50/1.0L ($2100 or so used), a 24/1.4L ($1200) and a 135/2L ($800)
The build quality of a Canon EOS 5D is certainly not comparable to a Leica. And whoever has ever used an elmarit would be very disappointed with the Canon wide lenses!
But I basically agree regarding the insane price of the Noctilux.
Cheers!
Abbazz