bugmenot
Well-known
Wow, isn't that a nice attitude! OP never said he has no money, he simply said he doesn't have or rather cannot justify spending $5-7k on a Leica M9.
What never ceases to amaze me are the minority of Leica owners who are snobby and have a complete disregard towards those who wish to enter the system, but have to make some sacrifices in order to do so. Just wow.
back alley
IMAGES
let's be nice folks...
crispy12
Well-known
I used an x100 as my digital camera but switched to an M8 in the beginning of the year. The ISO above 640 is terrible for a camera of this price. The ISO settings only go in full stops unlike the M9, so your options are 160, 320, 640, 1250 and 2500. The dynamic range drops dramatically at 1250 and colour work is unusable at 2500. However the shots at base ISO are incredible!
I miss the high ISO of the x100 but the usage style of a rangefinder wins it for me. The crop factor is also mildly annoying in the sense that I think about my film and digital styles differently. My main lens on my M6 is 50mm but 35mm on the M8. Different image qualities obviously, I often go back to film because it's FF. I'm saving up to get an M9 now, but no regrets about trying the less expensive M8 first.
I miss the high ISO of the x100 but the usage style of a rangefinder wins it for me. The crop factor is also mildly annoying in the sense that I think about my film and digital styles differently. My main lens on my M6 is 50mm but 35mm on the M8. Different image qualities obviously, I often go back to film because it's FF. I'm saving up to get an M9 now, but no regrets about trying the less expensive M8 first.
Jobin
Established
I sold my 5dmkii and 35L and picked up a used M8, never looked back.
willie_901
Veteran
Raid,
I shoot ISO 400 outdoors and 1600 to 3200 indoors.
I shoot ISO 400 outdoors and 1600 to 3200 indoors.
lcpr
Well-known
Seconding the R-D1 suggestion. I'm quite amazed at how good the old sensor is. You sacrifice a bit with the 6MP, but add a super fast lens like the 35/1.2 and you can shoot in any light.
palmerfralick
Established
+1 on the RD-1.
umcelinho
Marcelo
this. also, the 1.2 balances the r-d1 weight/size really well, it's a great match. love it.
PatrickCheung
Well-known
I suppose I can offer my opinion on this... I sold my Nikon D700 kit for an M8 kit. My girlfriend owns the RD-1... so I guess you have both sides of the spectrum here!
First of all, I've never looked back and wished I had a DSLR after selling my M8, though my case might be different from yours. It's helluva lot lighter than the D7000, and the feeling you get from shooting one can't be replaced by any DSLR or Mirrorless Digital. If I want autofocus and macro capabilities, I use my X100. I rarely shoot telephoto, so it's not an issue.
People complain about the M8's high iso noise control... I've never found it to be an issue, but I suppose that's a matter of taste. I find that if you overexpose by at least half a stop when shooting at ISO1250 or higher, the noise is controllable. Here's a shot from my M8 at ISO1250 with the Zeiss 28 Biogon:
Not too bad right? You just gotta over expose a bit.
The M8's ergonomics aren't the best... I find it a pain to handle without some sort of thumb grip. I'm using the Thumbie from Steve Barnett. I've tried the Thumbs Up, but it's not for my hands.
It's menu system isn't the most efficient, but it's also not horrible. My main complain is that I need to go into a menu to change the ISO.
I find that the M8's viewfinder isn't that accurate... it shows framelines that are smaller than what the lens sees... but when has that ever been a big issue?
Onto the RD-1...
My girlfriend loves the RD-1... and absolutely hates the M8. I kinda like her RD-1 too, but I NEED the crop factor and build quality (my camera is often tossed around...) of my M8.
I love the ergonomics... it's comfortable in the hand. The advance lever provides a good stable grip. The controls are exactly like a film camera's, everything vital is mechanical. You only ever have to go into a menu to change the image quality (jpeg, raw).
It's image quality is great up until ISO1600, but at that point it gets a little too grainy for my taste.
It's viewfinder is big, bright, and clear. You manually select the framelines for each lens. The bonus is that it only shows one set of framelines, the draw back is that you're limited to only 28, 35, and 50... and you have to manually set it. I somewhat prefer the RD-1 viewfinder over the M8's because it's so uncluttered and big. The meter is harder to read than the M8's though.
My girlfriend's RD-1's screen just broke... it won't display a single thing. It's pretty much a digital film camera now... some say that it's for the best (the PERFECT digital rangefinder), some find it an annoyance. The swivel screen makes the conncetions inside a bit sketchy.
I think both cameras have things that are good and bad. The M8 has better build quality, a smaller crop factor, an easier to read meter, and more selection in framelines. The RD-1 has better ergonomics, is a bit lighter, has a bigger, brighter and less cluttered viewfinder, and if you love shooting with mechanical film cameras... then it's the closest you'll get in a digital camera. If you can try them both out before buying then do so.
And for those who think we're digital purists, we shoot a load of film as well. It's never a battle between digital and film for us two. Digital compliments the film, and vice versa. Some days you need/feel like shooting digital, some days film. Some jobs are better suited for one medium over the other. You have a Zeiss Ikon, and you have a 5D... you're set.
One thing my girlfriend and I can agree on is that we do not regret ditching our DSLRs for these cameras
First of all, I've never looked back and wished I had a DSLR after selling my M8, though my case might be different from yours. It's helluva lot lighter than the D7000, and the feeling you get from shooting one can't be replaced by any DSLR or Mirrorless Digital. If I want autofocus and macro capabilities, I use my X100. I rarely shoot telephoto, so it's not an issue.
People complain about the M8's high iso noise control... I've never found it to be an issue, but I suppose that's a matter of taste. I find that if you overexpose by at least half a stop when shooting at ISO1250 or higher, the noise is controllable. Here's a shot from my M8 at ISO1250 with the Zeiss 28 Biogon:
Not too bad right? You just gotta over expose a bit.
The M8's ergonomics aren't the best... I find it a pain to handle without some sort of thumb grip. I'm using the Thumbie from Steve Barnett. I've tried the Thumbs Up, but it's not for my hands.
It's menu system isn't the most efficient, but it's also not horrible. My main complain is that I need to go into a menu to change the ISO.
I find that the M8's viewfinder isn't that accurate... it shows framelines that are smaller than what the lens sees... but when has that ever been a big issue?
Onto the RD-1...
My girlfriend loves the RD-1... and absolutely hates the M8. I kinda like her RD-1 too, but I NEED the crop factor and build quality (my camera is often tossed around...) of my M8.
I love the ergonomics... it's comfortable in the hand. The advance lever provides a good stable grip. The controls are exactly like a film camera's, everything vital is mechanical. You only ever have to go into a menu to change the image quality (jpeg, raw).
It's image quality is great up until ISO1600, but at that point it gets a little too grainy for my taste.
It's viewfinder is big, bright, and clear. You manually select the framelines for each lens. The bonus is that it only shows one set of framelines, the draw back is that you're limited to only 28, 35, and 50... and you have to manually set it. I somewhat prefer the RD-1 viewfinder over the M8's because it's so uncluttered and big. The meter is harder to read than the M8's though.
My girlfriend's RD-1's screen just broke... it won't display a single thing. It's pretty much a digital film camera now... some say that it's for the best (the PERFECT digital rangefinder), some find it an annoyance. The swivel screen makes the conncetions inside a bit sketchy.
I think both cameras have things that are good and bad. The M8 has better build quality, a smaller crop factor, an easier to read meter, and more selection in framelines. The RD-1 has better ergonomics, is a bit lighter, has a bigger, brighter and less cluttered viewfinder, and if you love shooting with mechanical film cameras... then it's the closest you'll get in a digital camera. If you can try them both out before buying then do so.
And for those who think we're digital purists, we shoot a load of film as well. It's never a battle between digital and film for us two. Digital compliments the film, and vice versa. Some days you need/feel like shooting digital, some days film. Some jobs are better suited for one medium over the other. You have a Zeiss Ikon, and you have a 5D... you're set.
One thing my girlfriend and I can agree on is that we do not regret ditching our DSLRs for these cameras
froyd
Veteran
Amen, brother!
Iso400 gives you 1/30 and 2.8 in typical indoor evening light. With 800 you go anxtra stop above that. I rarely find myself needing a lot more than that, but on nighttime streets I'll admit that I've sometime wished for a 1.4 lens.
froyd
Veteran
Yes, but mind the vf magnification. 1:1 is not for everybody. Think of what focal lenghts you like on the Ikon and consider what you will need to replicate them on the cropped digital rfs. The M8 will be a bit easier if you like 35s in 35mm.
bugmenot
Well-known
There are a lot of digital shooters that shoot ISO 800 and above. With the 5DII, even ISO 6400 is easily acceptable.
Having actually owned both the 5DII and M8 at the same time, I really wouldn't recommend a 5DII owner to completely abandon his camera for the M8. There are simply too many compromises and quirky issues. If you do decide to go forward, I recommend the M8.2 over M8, and suggest you find one that was produced more recently than not. Perhaps even one that has had a recent CLA at Leica in NJ with some warranty left over.
One other thing ... don't expect the M8 viewfinder to top your Zeiss Ikon viewfinder. The ZI viewfinder is a thing of wonder.
Having actually owned both the 5DII and M8 at the same time, I really wouldn't recommend a 5DII owner to completely abandon his camera for the M8. There are simply too many compromises and quirky issues. If you do decide to go forward, I recommend the M8.2 over M8, and suggest you find one that was produced more recently than not. Perhaps even one that has had a recent CLA at Leica in NJ with some warranty left over.
One other thing ... don't expect the M8 viewfinder to top your Zeiss Ikon viewfinder. The ZI viewfinder is a thing of wonder.
Lss
Well-known
Images of this size are, of course, quite pointless in the whole noise debate, but here are two anyway:
M8 at ISO1250 and pushed two stops (ISO 5000/6400 equiv.) with no noise reduction. Even at this size, you can see it is noisy in the shadows and mid greys, but I think it is usable and prints beautifully to 13x20 (in cm) which is the largest I have tried this photo at. Those allergic to any noise whatsoever will disagree, which is fine by me. I'll just say it is a long time to be still complaining in 2012, when the camera was released in 2006.
For me, a more significant problem than the visible noise at or above ISO 640 is the declining colour fidelity and dynamic range (which I haven't really tested). If you are into saturated colours, try to keep to ISO 320 or below on M8. Otherwise, just expose correctly.
Next, colour at ISO 1250 with no exposure tweaking. Here the colour is boosted, and since all I did is a simple global adjustment, the frame looks pretty poor to me. I am not going to print this one, but if I did I would first touch up the colour with local adjustments. No noise reduction here either.
M8 at ISO1250 and pushed two stops (ISO 5000/6400 equiv.) with no noise reduction. Even at this size, you can see it is noisy in the shadows and mid greys, but I think it is usable and prints beautifully to 13x20 (in cm) which is the largest I have tried this photo at. Those allergic to any noise whatsoever will disagree, which is fine by me. I'll just say it is a long time to be still complaining in 2012, when the camera was released in 2006.
For me, a more significant problem than the visible noise at or above ISO 640 is the declining colour fidelity and dynamic range (which I haven't really tested). If you are into saturated colours, try to keep to ISO 320 or below on M8. Otherwise, just expose correctly.
Next, colour at ISO 1250 with no exposure tweaking. Here the colour is boosted, and since all I did is a simple global adjustment, the frame looks pretty poor to me. I am not going to print this one, but if I did I would first touch up the colour with local adjustments. No noise reduction here either.
leicapixie
Well-known
i own neither camera but have worked with the M8. A great camera, even with the crop and filter issues. Sharpness relative to lens..I found the longer lenses 90mm at maximum aperture gave poor performance. Half out of focus. No i don't know how to use a RFDR having used M's since the 50's, my own M since '66. Yes the lenses were calibrated.. Higher ISO was unacceptable.
Used Canon EOS for a number of years. I think SLR a better way for accurate compositions, ease of interchangeability of lenses.
The Canon lenses close to Leica and in some instances superior. Having used a few Canon film cameras and lenses, The A series, AE-1,Ae-1P, AV-1,A1 and matching lenses, it is my impression at that point, Canon had surpassed Leica. Sure some Leica lenses a bit sharper, barely noticeable.
I enjoy the Leica RFDR experience, the small lenses(if older) and the "feel" of the body. Yet for a long trip, with an owned 5D, why sell for an inferior system? You will have to weigh up the differences both physical and in your thoughts..
One comment about "pushing" higher ISO on the M8. A better result if "overexposed"? That means it was no longer 1600 ISO! It was less ISO.
I would use what you have! The Zeiss has a great viewfinder. Not perfect..The Canon a very superior machine. Add a few good primes, a reasonable zoom. You are set.
Used Canon EOS for a number of years. I think SLR a better way for accurate compositions, ease of interchangeability of lenses.
The Canon lenses close to Leica and in some instances superior. Having used a few Canon film cameras and lenses, The A series, AE-1,Ae-1P, AV-1,A1 and matching lenses, it is my impression at that point, Canon had surpassed Leica. Sure some Leica lenses a bit sharper, barely noticeable.
I enjoy the Leica RFDR experience, the small lenses(if older) and the "feel" of the body. Yet for a long trip, with an owned 5D, why sell for an inferior system? You will have to weigh up the differences both physical and in your thoughts..
One comment about "pushing" higher ISO on the M8. A better result if "overexposed"? That means it was no longer 1600 ISO! It was less ISO.
I would use what you have! The Zeiss has a great viewfinder. Not perfect..The Canon a very superior machine. Add a few good primes, a reasonable zoom. You are set.
Lss
Well-known
Just to clarify, the catacomb picture above is truly pushed two stops, as in increasing the exposure. The original image is thus underexposed, not overexposed.
Dwayneb9584
Well-known
I thought about selling all my Canon DSLR gear and using the money to fund a M9. I would really love a digital full frame rangefinder. It will meld right into my workflow as well. I think this would be my best bet. With that said, all my canon gear will be up for sale. If interested you can PM me about it until I post an ad somewhere. While I'd do well with the M8 It's hard to go back to a crop sensor, especially since I've been using my Ikon and 5D II. I know this will be the best thing to do for me. It may take a couple of months to fund the rest of the money for the M9 But it will benefit me in so many ways.
Archiver
Veteran
For a long time, my main digital camera was the 5D Mark II, and main film camera the Zeiss Ikon. I now use the M9 as my primary personal camera, and I've used a M8.2 for a week, so I've got a bit of a handle on all of these cameras.
The M8 is NOT like an Ikon. The feel is very different and the M8 is louder, heavier and considerably thicker. I prefer the way the Ikon sits in my hand, to be truthful, much in the same way that I prefer the slimmer build of the M7. Metering is different as well, being like a wide-centre-spot. If you've handled a M8/M9 and compared it, you'll know what I'm talking about.
I have a suggestion that no one else has made. Invest in a couple of Voigtlander manual focus primes for Canon EF. The 20mm and 40mm lenses are pretty darn good, and when I put the 40mm Ultron on the 5D Mark II, it makes me think of a Leica M9 on steroids. Really, it's hardly bigger than the M9, has a good grip, M9-beating high ISO and full HD video. Check out Peter Lueck's article:
http://www.peterlueck.com/fotografie/voigtlander-pancake-40mm-f20-fur-canon-ef-5d-ii/
The M8 is NOT like an Ikon. The feel is very different and the M8 is louder, heavier and considerably thicker. I prefer the way the Ikon sits in my hand, to be truthful, much in the same way that I prefer the slimmer build of the M7. Metering is different as well, being like a wide-centre-spot. If you've handled a M8/M9 and compared it, you'll know what I'm talking about.
I have a suggestion that no one else has made. Invest in a couple of Voigtlander manual focus primes for Canon EF. The 20mm and 40mm lenses are pretty darn good, and when I put the 40mm Ultron on the 5D Mark II, it makes me think of a Leica M9 on steroids. Really, it's hardly bigger than the M9, has a good grip, M9-beating high ISO and full HD video. Check out Peter Lueck's article:
http://www.peterlueck.com/fotografie/voigtlander-pancake-40mm-f20-fur-canon-ef-5d-ii/
raphaelaaron
Well-known
I own an M8.2 and everyone is correct about the ISO. sucks above 640, heck I don't even put it passed 320.
sell all your gear just get a used M9. I saw one steel grey go off ebay the other day for 4 grand. only had 283 actuations on it. that was a steal.
edit: there's two RD-1 rangefinders on ebay right now.
sell all your gear just get a used M9. I saw one steel grey go off ebay the other day for 4 grand. only had 283 actuations on it. that was a steal.
edit: there's two RD-1 rangefinders on ebay right now.
Rangefinderfreak
Well-known
If you love film, but think it is expensive, why not get a M 4 or M6 and a used M8.
I routinely carry around a M4-P with Double X and a M8 with 320 asa setting on RAW/ B&W. I usually start with a given subject matter with the M8 but when I am "inside the subject" mentally, I finish the shoot with film/M4-P I don`t use much film, usually not even a roll, but I have the images I want in both formats. I carry three lenses: 21mm-35mm 1,4 and a 50mm 1,2 They are all together lighter and smaller than a DSLR with a monstrous wideangle Zoom
I routinely carry around a M4-P with Double X and a M8 with 320 asa setting on RAW/ B&W. I usually start with a given subject matter with the M8 but when I am "inside the subject" mentally, I finish the shoot with film/M4-P I don`t use much film, usually not even a roll, but I have the images I want in both formats. I carry three lenses: 21mm-35mm 1,4 and a 50mm 1,2 They are all together lighter and smaller than a DSLR with a monstrous wideangle Zoom