I Think The M8 Will Fly Like A Lead Balloon

[Bryce]

To those of you who say Leica has offered a non mechanical, so "non Leica" camera, what would you have the company do? Continue to sell ever fewer (and ever more overpriced, due to low production) film bodies only? Until the shrinking market finally puts it out of business?
I see the company as doing something it must to survive, and it is a hard line to walk- offer product that has the potential to be the M3 of the present.
For what it's worth, they're still offering two 35mm bodies.

 

[Socke]

You say, "And to the watch analogy, I prefer Breitling to Rolex..."


It's not what one likes, it's what one buys and 18-K Rolexes fly off the shelves...Breitling is a fine watch, of course, as are many others but a solid gold Rolex [ and a few others, not including your brand] is the choice of the trend setters...


My personal favorite is a steel IWC chronograph with a black face and white numerals...

Bob, in germany gold and platinum Rolexes where the 1st choice of pimps because any pawnbroker around the world would cache them in if need be.

 

[Nachkebia]

Check M system PDF http://www.leica-camera.us/assets/file/download.php?filename=file_1217.pdf
I wonder why all pictures (except the once that look vhs) in the brochure are taken on film camera 😀

 

[bob cole]

Socke says, "Bob, in germany gold and platinum Rolexes where the 1st choice of pimps because any pawnbroker around the world would cache them in if need be."


--------------
Socke, if you've ever been broke, it's nice to have something to pawn...The Medici's, among others, became enormously wealthy as pawnbrokers and money lenders a very long time ago...When I was much younger I had to pawn my gold college ring many times for $5 usd so I could eat. Later, when a US gold coin sold for $50 usd, I badly wanted to buy one so I could have something of value to pawn but by the time I had the $50, the coin was selling for several hundred dollars...Pimps are not the only ones in pawnshops...

As an addenda, lots of pawnshops in my area are closing because they are loaded with merchandise and nobody's buying most of it...

 

[bob cole]

Update On Hermes Stake In Leica

Update On Hermes Stake In Leica

THE LUG [leica users group] just posted the following:



Just read: Hermes is selling today his participation on Leica to the
Austrian Group ACM, the reason is the bad profits of Leica, the same
information says that Hermes should have a profit of 15 Millions of Euro
with transaction.

It seems contradictory, just today with the announcement of the M8 etc..., I
don't understand

Saludos desde Barcelona
Luis {Ripoli}


---------------------------

ACM is the other major Leica shareholder...I cannot vouch for such information; I'm just letting you know...bob








T

 

[jlw]

It interests me to note that a lot of the points being raised here are not really against the M8 specifically, but against digital cameras in general. Yeah, they're battery-dependent. Yeah, the sensor stays locked up inside the camera (unless you spend the REALLY big bucks and get something like a Hasselblad H2... but guess what, the sensor in that isn't "full frame," so there's a crop factor on your 80mm lens... guess it really must be a piece of crap, huh?)

So, people who don't like digital cameras are never going to buy an M8 no matter how good a digital camera it is. Does that mean it's going to be a failure? Well, the vast majority of the photography market has gone to digital, and the vast majority of the upper end has gone to 35mm-esque DSLRs such as those from Canon and Nikon.

Until recently, the people who use those systems (and whose investments in them might make the M8's price tag seem like a drop in the bucket) were basically locked out of using an RF camera even if it would have had utility in their photography, because it would have meant going back to a film-based workflow for part of their shooting. That's just not practical for the average high-productivity digital shooter (as I found out the hard way when I tried to keep a "hybrid" workflow going.)

A lot of these big-dollar DSLR shooters are photographically sophisticated enough to know that an RF camera might have some advantages for some parts of their work. But before now, there was no way for them to buy into these advantages. A lot of serious photographers are pretty conservative, and a camera from a non-camera company (the R-D 1) probably wouldn't have been persuasive for them. The M8 won't have that problem -- it's about as conservative as a digital camera can get!

The more I think about it, the more I think we will see a significant number of high-volume DSLR shooters pick up an M8, maybe just to use one or two wide and/or fast lenses. You've seen the gigantic bags some of these guys lug around, right?... adding an M8 and two lenses would barely add a bulge.

Will it save the company? I don't know. Will it be the best-selling M ever? Probably not -- the M3 had the advantage of being on the market for many years, and at the height of the RF era, so it'll probably never catch up to that. But will it sell fast, and will it bring new users into the RF fold? Yes, I think it might! I suppose that's good news for me even though I can't afford one.

 

[lifevicarious]

Light fall off

Light fall off

Two Canons have a full frame sensor and both have serious light fall off with even the best WA lenses.

I don't think that is what one wants from Leica glas.

They don't have much, if any more light fall off then the same lenses on film (I have a 5D). While there is a small part of light fall off associated with the sensor (hence the 1.33 on the M8), it's less with the SLR as the lens is much further from the ilm/sensor plane.

 

[telenous]

I think the M8 will sell well. The camera is a joy to behold and it continues the Leica tradition of fetishized commodities that actually work. I am not saying that it will fly off the selves but I believe it will generate profits for Leica that wouldn't be there if they kept selling only film bodies. In fact, we 'd better hope the camera does well, and that it hooks more people into the system, if we want Leica to be around offering all these marvelous lenses and cameras in the future. Being committed with a camera that costs the better part of 5k means that you are also buying lenses for it, and that could guarantee the financial success of the company. Besides it is imperative for Leica to have a digital body for it releases it from its dependence on the fortunes of film. (And as much as I love film I am wary for its fate in the not-so-distant future).

I will not be buying the M8 for various reasons but it is the only digital camera I 'd spent serious money for. I fully expect it to do very well - both sale and performancewise.

 

[dmr]

Two Canons have a full frame sensor and both have serious light fall off with even the best WA lenses.

Stupid question here ... why won't the same fall-off occur with, uh, "full frame film"?

The important question is, do you want to shoot it with all its limitations in 30 years?

I know I'm not the only one who currently shoots with 30 year old cameras. (I'm really convinced that the combination of '70s glass and 21st century film is hard to beat!) I do get the impression that today's digital cameras such as the M8 and the Epson, are not intended to last that long, while the current film Leicas are expected to have such a lifetime. Am I crazy on this point?

 

[sf]

The M8 will probably last longer at a decent value because Leica isn't likely to try and keep up with the SLR makers on the pace of upgrading. They can't. Everything about the Leica experience just forbids that. From the market to production to concepting. Who knows what the pace will be, but the M8 will retain its value just fine until Leica implements whatever yet to be publicized technology will give high dynamic range, noiseless, 22MP images at a marketable cost...

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

Why is a rangefinder persistently compared to an SLR? What is this need to persistently compare apples with kiwis?

Harley Davidson is not concerned about competition from Ford, is it?

Prada isn't quite concerned with Blue Navy.

Movie theatres aren't butting heads with NASCAR.

Because their business may have something in common it doesn't mean that their core audience is the same. Why should Snapple be concerned about what beer Miller comes up with next?

 

[jaapv]

Stupid question here ... why won't the same fall-off occur with, uh, "full frame" film?

Because film reacts differently from a sensor to light that strikes it at an angle, sensors have a limited acceptance angle, film has not.

 

[jaapv]

I have the impression that some posters have no concept of the small size of the Leica company. Leica has no need to sell hundreds of thousands of camera's like Canon or Nikon, nor has it got the facilities to produce them. The yearly turnover of the company is in the order of 100 to 120 million Euro a year, that is including the M film camera's, R camera's, DMR, lenses for M and R, binoculars, compacts, digicams, spectivs, professional appliances and the licensing to Panasonic and service department. If they would sell 10.000 M8's a year ( I suppose Canon sells that number of DSLR's a day), that would add over 30% to their yearly turnover. And 10.000 worldwide is really not many camera's at all.

 

[jano]

Stupid question here ... why won't the same fall-off occur with, uh, "full frame film"?

Based on what I've read, this is because the sensors perform best when light hits them perpendicular, and at the edges of the full frame sensors, the light comes in at a possibly acute angle. Film does not react to the angle of light, I think. *shrug*


edit -- Duuuh.. sorry, I didn't see Jaap's answer! 🙂

 

[jaapv]

No problem, Jano, it was a FAQ anyway 😀

 

[John LeBeau]

The M line is like a Rolex, and the M8 is like Rolex deviating from their pure mechanical design.

Actually, Rolex did make a quartz watch. Never heard of it? I wonder why.

John

 

[Socke]

I know I'm not the only one who currently shoots with 30 year old cameras. (I'm really convinced that the combination of '70s glass and 21st century film is hard to beat!) I do get the impression that today's digital cameras such as the M8 and the Epson, are not intended to last that long, while the current film Leicas are expected to have such a lifetime. Am I crazy on this point?

I and most of my friends get well over 10,000 shots a year with ourr dSLRs. As far as I know nobody ever complaind about a worn out shutter on a Canon EOS 30/Elan 7 but I know at least four people who wore out this shutter in two years with a Canon EOS D30, one reason why the 10d got an improved version.

One thing totaly new to the younger bunch of PJs is brassing around the shutter button on their D20s, they don't know it from the wonderplastic housings of their film cameras 🙂

The M8 shutter shall be good for some 100,000 shots and that is the part most prone to failure in a digital camera.

 

[raid]

Great discussion so far, but this is a topic that still has not created much interest in me. If you need and want a digital camera, get whichever type you feel is most suitable to your needs and wallet.

I agree that Leitz does not have to compete with the SLR market and that the digital M will be limited as the film based M is.




Raid

 

[Andrew McK]

I hoped Leica would have gone for a different market slightly with the M8.
Rather than just being the preserve of the megabucks and the collectors.
It'd be nice if the camera was able to compete with the Canon 5Ds and Nikon D200s. I always wondered if the partnership with Matsu****a/Panasonic would have opened up a door like that or indeed if they had their eyes on a takeover of Leica.
I hoped they'd open up a nice little niche in the market between the film M cameras and DSLRs.
I don't think the M8 will sink though but I doubt it will fly or change anytihng much.
I'd still prefer the mechanical film version.

any chance of it putting prices down!!!!!!

OH!
I've just looked at the photo on the front page and it does it!!!!

you have to take the bottom off to get to the memory card and battery!
Fantastic.
Utterly Impractical and somewhat pointless but I always hoped they'd do that, just because the film cameras do.
It's famous, it's the trademark.

 

[HAnkg]

M8 viability

M8 viability

Being all mechanical or film based or 24x36 has never been the big attraction for me. Can't run without batteries? Batteries are a lot easier to carry through airport xrays and store then film. They generally take up a lot less space in your bag then a couple of bricks of film as well. I stopped using Leica's and moved to medium format (Plaubel RF) when I started shooting mostly color -then when client's demanded the same day results made possible by digital it was Canon 1Ds. I'm looking forward to shooting with Leica's again.

The big deal for me is rangefinder focusing, being able to see outside the frame, the small unobtrusive package and ergonomics that I find pretty close to ideal. If that's what your looking for I don't see any viable digital alternative.