If faked B/W is OK do we still need real B/W?

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Once again, the digital guys come around and TRY to convince the rest of us that their latest and great and soon to be obsolete toy FINALLY matches what a 35mm film camera can do. And once again they fail. They might have matched 35mm quality and possibly even medium format, but they will NEVER reach large format quality.

These are two different mediums and two different art forms. I wish the digital guys would stop comparing the two. When was the last time you heard a Bessa user say that his camera finally matched the quality of his obsolete 20D ?
 
Isn't there a digital sister site to this one? Why don't the digital guys go there? I don't go there to tell them how great film photography is.
 
Frank, if this site is the analogue rangefinder forum shouldn't it be called ARFF?
 
First, let me start by saying that I was quite reluctant to post *anything* in this thread, since by its nature (or the way the original question was asked), it provokes rather volatile replies.

Still, I'll take my chances, hoping that RFF is still a more civil place than p.net or some other forums 😉

Anyway, if I'm not mistaken, the original question was "If faked BW is OK do we still need real BW?".
IMHO, the question, put this way, rather resembles a typical trollish provocation... because of the way it was asked. Firstly, we do not "need" anything, apart from the essentials to survive (food and shelter?). Everything else is non-essential 🙂
Apart from working pro photographers, who do not come into this equation, since they mostly use color, and not B&W (notice I say "mostly", before anyone jumps here!). By "working pros" I consider mostly news- and pressmen of the "old type", who cover various events and need to provide a photo of the event. I know there are other pros (portrait and wedding photographers, etc...), but I don't think they are the issue here.

This thread soon evolved into typical digital vs analog rant, with some clever,and some not so clever opinions.

Let me get back a bit and point out one very important thing: RFF is a place for users of rangefinder cameras, who are mostly (correct me if I'm wrong) hobbysts - "amateurs" in the pure sense of the word, i.e. "lovers" of RF photography. Most of us here do this (photography, and in particular photography using rangefinders) because we love it. We love photography, and we love our wonderful, sometimes clunky, mostly hopelessly outdated, but always fascinating cameras. It's no secret that RFF is often gear-oriented 🙂

Let's get one thing clear: we do what we do because we love it. Not because we have to, but because we love it. Having that in mind, you can't argue that Leica is better than a Zorki, or that 6x6 is better than 35mm. It's not logical, because we're all (Leicas and Zorkis, 35mm users and TLR 6x6 users, all of us using them) on the brink of extinction. However, we still use the cameras that we use - because we love to do it. We're sentimental, all of us - and sentiments don't usually mix well with logic .🙂

Some of us prefer B&W, some prefer working in color, and we even accept digital users (i.e. users of Epson RD-1). Nobody here tries to "educate" anyone else about the error of their ways (analog vs. digital, B&W vs. color, etc.). Even SLR users/photos are tolerated.
As long as we use rangefinder cameras, and we find a pleasure in doing so, we don't care about the logic behind it. We're not logical - we're all anachronisms. Just take a look around you. We're a dying breed, and we don't need anyone telling us that. We already know it.

Now, pray, do tell me what does "pure" B&W and converted B&W have to do with all of the above? Who cares? In the long run, we're all dead 🙂

Do whatever you want to do, but don't try to push your choices upon us, telling us that your choice if far superior, for whatever reason you might state. If you're a working pro photographer, chances are you've switched to digital long ago. Well, good for you!
For myself, I do have a digital camera, and I use it mostly to document my RF cameras, their repairs, dissasembly, placement of various screws, etc. For that particular purpose, I find my digital camera quite useful. 😉
Apart from that, I'll probably shoot film (B&W) as long as I can get it, since I find pleasure in doing so. It may no be logical, but that's the way it is.

(End of rant Part 1)....
 
🙂 ARFF! ARFF!

I wish it were, however how many instances are there on the DSLR site that film guys start a thread extolling the virtues of traditional photo processes? My guess is 0. Why then does the reverse have to happen here?
 
It's just tiring to visit several photography website and to constantly read how digital is better than film, blah blah blah.

Give it a rest already.

No matter, time will tell.
 
Dan Chang said:
wah, for these who mess with wet dark room chemicals, I bet if you have a basement, you never check the Radon level, you have no idea about MSDS means. you do not have family or you just do not care about their healthy.
Can you dump your monitor in a regular dumper? your trash man will not pick up. but you can dump your chemical to your home sink. The color converted BW quality to some people is good enough, if few purist nuts disagree, that's fine. We do not want a uniform voice. Only idiot Call other people idiot.
How much money you want to wager? I'll be happy to take your money, I can apply it to more Christmas presents for my lovely wife, whom I care about very much!

Cheers,

Earl
 
(Rant Part 2)

... this is evolving into a full-blown rant 🙂

Anyway, let me finish the above issue ("pure" or "fake" B&W) by saying that whatever turns you on is OK by me - as long as you're not trying to push it on me or convince me that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

This thread is an example of another issue that's been bothering me for a while.
With so many new members this is not a closely-knit community it once was.
Granted, RFF is still more polite than most forums, and we're still mostly helpful and welcoming to new members - but things have definitely changed. Perhaps we need more "policing" (hi, joe!), but I still think the spirit of this site can overcome such minor glitches.

People, please keep in mind that this is a rangefinder forum, and that we also welcome users of digital (gasp!) rangefinders.
Andy, this is for you in particular. Perhaps you did not know that, but we DO allow digital here, and RD1 users have been here since day one. We, as a community, decided that RD1 shots ARE rangefinder shots, and that's it. Please, keep that in mind in the future.
This site, AFAIK, unlike apug.org, is not dedicated to preservation of traditional analog hand-made photography. This site is about rangefinder cameras and the images taken with rangefinder cameras - be they analog or digital, "pure" or "fake" B&W, scanned from prints or negatives, developed at home or at 1-hour lab. It just doesn't matter. No use complaining about it.

In general, we managed to stay a pretty relaxed bunch of happy people so far. I'd like this to remain so in the future.

Finally, I may offer my own humble take on the original issue - witout trying to justify it in any way, except by saying that it makes me happy. I like "original" B&W, and desaturated color shots seem to me like "fakes". I personally detest photoshopped stuff pretending to be B&W. But, that's just my opinion. Your opinion on this may differ, and I respect it.

Regards,

Denis
 
Frank, a lot of film users have scanners but I don't know any digital user who has a film recorder, myself included 🙂

A friend once had one to record powerpoint presentations on slides so they could be held with a slide projector. He sold it after his last customer bought a digital projector some four years ago. Wish he told me, I'd bought it although it was calibrated to E100 only and recorded not more than 4000 lines.
 
ywenz said:
What is so cruicial about a formal education when you're savvy enough to make it out there and strike it rich? What's a degree gonna give you? nothing...<snip>

You missed his point. Just because one person of limited intelligence can go out and strike it rich doesn't mean we get rid of education as a social institution.

And just because you can produce and and manipulate images for a computer screen that fools someone as to which is digital and which is analog does not, as has been pointed out, mean a thing. Viewing images on a screen is one thing, and has its place. But when I want to really see a photographer's work, I go to a museum or gallery where his/her prints are being displayed. Or I buy a high quality book of reproductions. It is a totally different medium and experience. I am not arguing that one medium is "better" than the other. They both have their place, I can only speak to what means more to me.

Now, if I can produce b&w prints that please me as much as a a top of the line optical/chemical/fibre print, that would be wonderful, assuming the digital camera was as easy and pleasurable to use as a high quality film camera.

Making a photo is about presence, about being in the now. The first part of that chain of events involves a camera. If I am at one with my equipment during that process, the chances of making a good image are increased dramatically. That is crucial to me. You can give me a digital camera that is technically superior to any film camera I own, but if I cannot good images out of it, what good is that to me? (BTW, since I own some good 4x5 gear, I'd really love to be given something technically superior!) Other pieces in the digital creation chain strike me as not quite there yet, either. But again, that's based on my perception of the process and the results.

So, to get back to rangefinder-oriented issues ... someone wake me when there's a digital RF that solves the problems of the R-D1 (as good as it is) and is in my price range. The b&w I've seen out of the R-D1 is very good, so maybe we should be talking about completely monochrome digital workflow.

Oh, and Dan, I know you weren't directing it at me, but I'm NOT a purist nut. That kind of ad hominem attack is pretty juvenile.

Earl
 
denishr said:
(Rant Part 2)


Andy, this is for you in particular. Perhaps you did not know that, but we DO allow digital here, and RD1 users have been here since day one. We, as a community, decided that RD1 shots ARE rangefinder shots, and that's it. Please, keep that in mind in the future.


I am well aware of that. However, just because digital is accepted here that is no reason to sit quiet when a digital user spouts utter crap concerning the traditional photographic process.
 
Film is getting better and computers are used to make it better. All the new lenses we go on about are designed by computers. The future will contain both It is all just a matter of choice and preference.

Here is some info to throw into the mix!

HOW IT WORKS TOGETHER
 
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Andy K said:
I am well aware of that. However, just because digital is accepted here that is no reason to sit quiet when a digital user spouts utter crap concerning the traditional photographic process.

Andy
you are full of s**t. I have 60+ Leicas, I do not even own a p/s DC, if I need it have to use one in my office. the only digital stuff is my scanner. You think you are the purist, right? Do you mix your chemical from scratch? Can you strip your Leica down to parts and put it back? you can not. You just like some of the LHSA members thank they are better than Erwin Puts in term of evaluate lens scitifically.
 
Andy K said:
I am well aware of that. However, just because digital is accepted here that is no reason to sit quiet when a digital user spouts utter crap concerning the traditional photographic process.


Andy, please, don't get me wrong: I'm probably as ardent "keeper of the faith" as you are, but I simply exercise more restraint when faced with the trolls 🙂

Like I said, RFF was never as "pure" as apug.org, but it never bothered me. Sometimes we do get a troll-ish attempts of the "digital preachers" here, but those usually get ignored by those who know what RFF is all about.
In the long run, ignoring such trolls or politely directing them to the "sister site" (www.dslrexchange.com) yields beter results, without engaging in heated debate.

Denis
 
Denis, hopefully you won't send everybody who chooses to digitize his pictures over to the digital SLR forum?
 
Dan Chang said:
Andy
you are full of s**t. I have 60+ Leicas, I do not even own a p/s DC, if I need it have to use one in my office. the only digital stuff is my scanner. You think you are the purist, right? Do you mix your chemical from scratch? Can you strip your Leica down to parts and put it back? you can not. You just like some of the LHSA members thank they are better than Erwin Puts in term of evaluate lens scitifically.

Thankyou for confirming your level of intelligence. See here. I don't care how many Leicas you have, that means NOTHING. I can strip and reassemble an SA80 blindfolded in 2 minutes flat. That does not mean I am a crack shot.
 
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