sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Even in the US Kodak weren't that dominant for most of the 20th century - at times, big competitors like Ansco or Dupont had quite significant market shares, and the many small makers accounted for a lot too. Elsewhere Kodak often did not even enter the market until the sixties or seventies - the film markets in the bigger European countries still were dominated by national makers up into the sixties to nineties. And even that still is a Euro-American biased view that does not account for the majority of the global population that lived in parts of the planet where Kodak film was unobtainable.
Out to Lunch
Ventor
Yeah, I've read that before but it is a romantic comparison... and nonsense: film production has its own economy of scale realities...you'll have to produce/market/sell a lot of it to make a decent profit.
slumry
Member
Must have Portra!
bwcolor
Veteran
I understand that until relatively recently, the color blue was so expensive that artist could not afford to paint using blue paint. Somehow, they produced artwork that is still admired today.
As the film supply world dwindles, the remaining players will be strengthened in that fewer companies supply the market. It should go on like this until film, like the blue pigment, is not affordable.
A more realistic concern are the zeros and ones sitting on some form of digital media. Much of the public will be shocked to find that their child's birthing video is unreadable.
As the film supply world dwindles, the remaining players will be strengthened in that fewer companies supply the market. It should go on like this until film, like the blue pigment, is not affordable.
A more realistic concern are the zeros and ones sitting on some form of digital media. Much of the public will be shocked to find that their child's birthing video is unreadable.
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back alley
IMAGES
history is made...roger and i agree!
hendriphile
Well-known
Perhaps something analogous to Voigtlander... a great name in German optics, older than Leica, perhaps even older than Kodak... which went belly-up and then was resurrected (even to their design lettering) by Cosina.
Kolame
Established
hendriphile, right, but think of Agfa e.g. as well… If Kodak goes that way, it'd be a shame!
dbarnes
Well-known
It's true, Kodak as a name would be likely to be scooped up by someone and used. You can still buy things badged as Westinghouse and Sylvania and Polaroid, those names supplying a brand image that usually seems to have little or nothing to do with the goods.
But more tactically: If Polaroid SX70 film manufacturing can be resurrected by a successor company, I'd bet that 35mm Tri-X manufacturing also could be.
But more tactically: If Polaroid SX70 film manufacturing can be resurrected by a successor company, I'd bet that 35mm Tri-X manufacturing also could be.
Kolame
Established
It's not that easy. Look for how long Adox tries to get up APX again. They've got Agfa-engineers and aren't finished with the APX 400 and haven't even started with APX 100.
(http://www.adox.de/ADOX_Filme/Premium Line Films/ADOXAP400/ADOXAP400.html and http://www.adox.de/ADOX_Filme/Premium Line Films/ADOXAP100/ADOXAP100.html)
Nigel Meaby
Well-known
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
That is still the old stuff, cut from stored master rolls, marketed by the company that was the old AgfaPhoto marketing department and trademarks.
Adox and Inoviscoat are restarting APX400 production. However Inoviscoat, as a management buyout of the latest Agfa production line at the time of insolvency, don't own the old Agfa b&w plant, but have a much more modern factory than ever used for APX, and a five year hiatus thrown in - so they cannot simply continue were Agfa left off.
Harman, who went on directly with the Ilford plants, products and staff, had a much smoother transition after Ilford went bankrupt.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
Yes! Everyone seems to be forgetting that Fujifilm, Ilford and a number of other companies make very acceptable substitutes for Tri-X and other Kodak films.
Nigel Meaby
Well-known
I think your comments about these AGFA films are incorrect. The same films here. It states Brand New dated 2013. APX400 is in development and may be available by late 2011, http://www.silverprint.co.uk/ProductByGroup.asp?PrGrp=2271
I'm also aware of the new Adox films such as Adox Pan 400 http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/adox-pan-400-303-c.asp
But anyway it shows that there are companies prepared to continue making and developing B&W films, at the very least, well into the future at affordable prices.
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batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
AgfaPhoto is not the same as Agfa. They've been hawking all kinds of crap under this name (Ferrania, anyone?).
I'm sure Sevo will fill in more details.
My point is this: Of course the trademarks would still be around, and based on the Agfa experience, so would fresh retail stock cut from frozen master rolls, at reasonable prices. However don't assume the same Tri-X will still be available after that.
I think the clock would tick down much faster for color films (E6 in particular), as well as Kodak chemicals.
I'm sure Sevo will fill in more details.
My point is this: Of course the trademarks would still be around, and based on the Agfa experience, so would fresh retail stock cut from frozen master rolls, at reasonable prices. However don't assume the same Tri-X will still be available after that.
I think the clock would tick down much faster for color films (E6 in particular), as well as Kodak chemicals.
ChrisP
Grain Lover
Well this thread inspired me to print on Ilford paper when my printer to comes to do my part to make sure my favourite film company sticks around forever (or at least until I'm too old to focus manually)
Kolame
Established
Concerning the APX-stuff:
There is no APX produced right now, stock of Agfa is being sold (as APX itself and Rollei Retro)! Adox hasn't updated their PAN 400 page since december 2010, back that time, they published this text:
"Wir versuchen den ADOX PAN 400 so schnell wie möglich zur Großserienreife zu bringen. Derzeit befinden wir uns im zweiten „scale up“- Stadium in der Forschung. Leider können wir keinen verbindlichen Erscheinungstermin bekannt geben, da dieser maßgeblich vom Fortgang der Forschungsanstrengungen abhängig ist.",
translated into English, this is:
"We try to bring the ADOX PAN 400 as soon as possible to maturity phase. Right now we are at the second "scale-up"-stadium in research. Unfortunately we can't give a bindingly relaese-date, because this is heavily connected to the ongoing research-process."
To me (!) that doesn't sound too good. And they haven't even started to work on the PAN 100!
Another question: Which companies are producing film right now?
Fuji
Kodak
Ilford
Efke
Lucky
Foma
These are the ones, I know, which ones did I forget?
There is no APX produced right now, stock of Agfa is being sold (as APX itself and Rollei Retro)! Adox hasn't updated their PAN 400 page since december 2010, back that time, they published this text:
"Wir versuchen den ADOX PAN 400 so schnell wie möglich zur Großserienreife zu bringen. Derzeit befinden wir uns im zweiten „scale up“- Stadium in der Forschung. Leider können wir keinen verbindlichen Erscheinungstermin bekannt geben, da dieser maßgeblich vom Fortgang der Forschungsanstrengungen abhängig ist.",
translated into English, this is:
"We try to bring the ADOX PAN 400 as soon as possible to maturity phase. Right now we are at the second "scale-up"-stadium in research. Unfortunately we can't give a bindingly relaese-date, because this is heavily connected to the ongoing research-process."
To me (!) that doesn't sound too good. And they haven't even started to work on the PAN 100!
Another question: Which companies are producing film right now?
Fuji
Kodak
Ilford
Efke
Lucky
Foma
These are the ones, I know, which ones did I forget?
igi
Well-known
The death of Kodak means one less option on how to shoot pictures and one more additive to the boring-ness of the photographic look.
Kolame
Established
if kodak dies...
I vote for Nigel Farage to conduct the funeral! He did a great job with the Euro funeral
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAH3hpCdthw
This is not a funny topic!
This is not a funny topic!
Well to be fair, neither is the death of the Euro
The simple solution is of course to buy and shoot lots of Tri-X! If there's the demand, it will be profitable for Kodak (or some other entity) to produce the supply. Limited or no demand, and well we know how that will end...
imush
Well-known
Most probably the 'professional' film division will survive or will be spun off to a new entity. Sales of Tri-X, Tmax and developers have more or less stabilized and are enough to sustain a smaller company, but nowhere near the historical size of Kodak. Ilford has off-loaded their b&w film to a smaller new company, and they seem to be doing well (although it appears to be a private company and we do not have their financial data).
In the worst outcome, the technology will be sold to the likes of Efke, Adox or Foma. Still, rights for Tri-X are an asset not to be trifled with, but it may prove difficult for them to reproduce it with consistent quality. Ilford and Fuji will get a better market share in that case.
Anyway, the result will be higher prices, and probably no new analogue R&D to speak of (there probably is none left in Kodak's pipeline anyway), so no new exciting films or chemistry. But we sort of expect that anyway.
Let's face it -- our demand for film is pretty inelastic, as far as most of us here are concerned there is no substitute for it yet. So the die-hard film photographers are a relatively small niche market, but as a whole we are prepared to stay for a while and pay a little more for film and paper. Moreover, I think our numbers have stabilized, and it is even possible that more photographers may convert to film in future.
Personally, I will miss Tri-X if it disappears, but expect that my general need for film will be filled for many years to come with Ilford, Fuji, Adox and Efke products. I do not have the hard evidence to prove it, but still think that the prospects of smaller dedicated producers are good enough to last them a while.
My harder question is: who can produce a good substitute for the late Neopan 1600? Nothing comes close.
In the worst outcome, the technology will be sold to the likes of Efke, Adox or Foma. Still, rights for Tri-X are an asset not to be trifled with, but it may prove difficult for them to reproduce it with consistent quality. Ilford and Fuji will get a better market share in that case.
Anyway, the result will be higher prices, and probably no new analogue R&D to speak of (there probably is none left in Kodak's pipeline anyway), so no new exciting films or chemistry. But we sort of expect that anyway.
Let's face it -- our demand for film is pretty inelastic, as far as most of us here are concerned there is no substitute for it yet. So the die-hard film photographers are a relatively small niche market, but as a whole we are prepared to stay for a while and pay a little more for film and paper. Moreover, I think our numbers have stabilized, and it is even possible that more photographers may convert to film in future.
Personally, I will miss Tri-X if it disappears, but expect that my general need for film will be filled for many years to come with Ilford, Fuji, Adox and Efke products. I do not have the hard evidence to prove it, but still think that the prospects of smaller dedicated producers are good enough to last them a while.
My harder question is: who can produce a good substitute for the late Neopan 1600? Nothing comes close.