In Solidarity with Ukraine

[Retro-Grouch]

Why don't people try a little to keep their comments less "radical" and of course, do not insult anyone with a personal attack.
It is OK not to agree with the rest of the views. It is also OK to stand behind with a less vocal voice and wanting to see a discussion that stays above the level of "doomed to get this thread closed soon".

Raid, I'm in complete agreement about maintaining civility and respect. But a "radical" opinion or comment is not antithetical to those values. If anything, I think we need more radical thinking that looks, without blinking, at the roots of our problems. That's the meaning of "radical".

 

[james.liam]

The UN has not been terribly successful, but it's what we've got, and better than nothing. Too much effort in the US has been poured into weakening the institution further (and we all know by whom!) rather than attempting to strengthen and support it.

It's generally been a forum for tyrannies to collaborate against free societies. Graft, promotion of bigotry and impotence in the face of crisis are its hallmarks. Strengthening US support for a useless and failed institution is thus counter-intuitive.

 

[Doug]

Some minor moderation of some posts would help keep it open.

Raid and Jonmanjiro make good points. Very early in this thread I moved it to the Off Topic area and kept an eye out for overly emotional input. So far it’s been ok with a few pushing it a bit. Please remain friendly and respectful. As it is in Off Topic, no real need for photos to stay on topic! But photos relating to the discussion are welcome if they meet RFF standards otherwise.

 

[nzeeman]

Maybe someone has thought of this (admittedly I haven’t read all the posts in this thread)… but what if there were some sort of organization, not Western, not Eastern, not allied with any political ideology, but rather a worldwide organization of nations - a sort of united league of countries - which would serve to air grievances and seek peaceful solutions before a situation approaches the point of hostility? This organization, as a whole, would have the authority and ability even to intervene - to prevent or possibly repel an aggressor. After two horrific world wars and dozens of equally horrific smaller wars , maybe such an organization could be formed to prevent such catastrophes and prevent what’s happening today in Ukraine. Or, perhaps, that’s just a fantasy and it would fail miserably.

it still exists and yugoslavia india and egypt were founding members - non aligned movement. it was best one and peaceful one - also it has majority of world in it. but since its not west organisation nobody in west cared about it because they see us as some untermensch and put labels as "third world", "developing countries" and so on....

 

[fireblade]

Gents, and ladies, whatever we living in the west think or believe is irrelevant. To have a civil discussion about what is happening is a good thing. This war, and all others since mankind walked this earth are tragic. This war was on the cards from about 2016. When Zelensky stood for office, 2018-19, and on the ticket that he would remove corruption in his country, it slowed the inevitable. BUT, he was just the puppet for Ukraine billionaire Ihor Kolomoisky. Furthermore, the panama papers revealed Zelensky had hid $41 million in off shore accounts. THAT"S where it now came to an end for him. He was exposed for the fraud that he is and wanting to do deals with NATO. Putin is now removing him.

 

[Brian Legge]

Do you have a reference for his net worth? There are rumors but lots of them are confusing different currencies.

I’d be impressed if someone with a net worth like like was putting their life on the line in this manner.

 

[valdas]

Gents, and ladies, whatever we living in the west think or believe is irrelevant. To have a civil discussion about what is happening is a good thing. This war, and all others since mankind walked this earth are tragic. This war was on the cards from about 2016. When Zelensky stood for office, 2018-19, and on the ticket that he would remove corruption in his country, it slowed the inevitable. BUT, he was just the puppet for Ukraine billionaire Ihor Kolomoisky. Furthermore, the panama papers revealed Zelensky had hid $41 million in off shore accounts. THAT"S where it now came to an end for him. He was exposed for the fraud that he is and wanting to do deals with NATO. Putin is now removing him.

oh, so now it is also fighting corruption? By destroying hospitals and killing innocent children, civilians. Would it not be better for Puting to deal with the corruption in Russia first?
I don’t know Zelenski’s net worth, 41$ million would be not an amazing amount that he could have earned as a very popular comedian both in Ukraine and Russia. Was it properly taxed? Who knows. In either case does not sound to me like a reason for a war. Panama papers involved many people and many countries, Russia as well.
Mentiong corruption in Ukraine as a some sort of justification is outrageous considering corruption levels in Russia.

 

[nickthetasmaniac]

Furthermore, the panama papers revealed Zelensky had hid $41 million in off shore accounts. THAT"S where it now came to an end for him. He was exposed for the fraud that he is and wanting to do deals with NATO. Putin is now removing him.

Seems like a stretch. If Putin was really concerned about ‘removing’ people exposed by the Panama Papers, he could start a lot closer to home than Ukraine.

 

[nzeeman]

oh, so now it is also fighting corruption? By destroying hospitals and killing innocent children, civilians. Would it not be better for Puting to deal with the corruption in Russia first?
I don’t know Zelenski’s net worth, 41$ million would be not an amazing amount that he could have earned as a very popular comedian both in Ukraine and Russia. Was it properly taxed? Who knows. In either case does not sound to me like a reason for a war. Panama papers involved many people and many countries, Russia as well.
Mentiong corruption in Ukraine as a some sort of justification is outrageous considering corruption levels in Russia.

very unusual hospitals and malls.... this was gorodok mall ...

 

[Yokosuka Mike]

Raid and Jonmanjiro make good points. Very early in this thread I moved it to the Off Topic area and kept an eye out for overly emotional input. So far it’s been ok with a few pushing it a bit. Please remain friendly and respectful. As it is in Off Topic, no real need for photos to stay on topic! But photos relating to the discussion are welcome if they meet RFF standards otherwise.

Doug, I have the greatest respect for you and all the mods, admins and owners of RFF. Best forum I’ve ever been a member of. It’s the only forum I'm currently a member of.

However, I can’t help feeling that this thread is the beginning of the end of RFF.

I hope I’m wrong.

All the best,
Mike

 

[raid]

When dictators exercise their unlimited powers, there is very little that any outsiders can do about it all. This is the sad truth. Take Saddam Hussein. He never stole money for himself and he did not have in his name any money outside Iraq. It was kept by thousands of people in their names, and the goal for SH was to support his regime (the "party"). An inhumane embargo was done around Iraq, and the UNESCO announced that at least 400,000 Iraqi children will die from malnutrition due to the embargo. The US Secretary of State was asked about it (I saw it on CNN), and her reply was "it is worth it". No weapons of mass destruction were ever found in Iraq. The US Secretary of State may have at some stage in her life apologized for her saying that sacrificing 400,000 innocent Iraqi children "was worth it". There were so many lies about Iraq, it was just disgusting, but what can anyone do about it.

 

[raid]

However, I can’t help feeling that this thread is the beginning of the end of RFF.

I hope I’m wrong.


Mike

You could be right, Mike.

 

[raid]

One of the most personal issues for Saddam Hussein was his approval (when he was VP) to give up to the Shah of Iran half of the waterway "Shatt Al-Arab) that was in Iraq's possession for ages, in return for Iran to corner the Iraqi Kurds and let Saddam's army slaughter them. SH needed to get back that waterway into Iraq's possession so that his legacy (then as President) was not tarnished, so he took the blessings of the leaders of Kuwait, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia to invade Iran.

Has Ukraine somehow hurt Putin's feelings?

 

[olakiril]

When humans exercise their unlimited powers, there is very little that any outsiders can do about it all.

By definition, power means just that... Also I fixed it a bit. Take the orange man as an example of having too much power without being a dictator.

People with power like the US Secretary of State, Saddam, Putin, the orange man, are usually pragmatic and for them other people are just means to an end. I get that. What saddens me most is the easiness with which people behind a keyboard justify death.

 

[james.liam]

The “orange man” as you call him, was blocked by all the embedded Establishment types, an unelected power in and of themselves. Who runs the joint are the information oligarchs who decide whom and what you’ll hear. Everything else gets canceled. That’s whom you should fear.

 

[fireblade]

oh, so now it is also fighting corruption? Corruption of the whole system, not just financially. By destroying hospitals and killing innocent children, civilians. Would it not be better for Puting to deal with the corruption in Russia first? Putin is not selling his country to the west like Zelensky. This is not about financial corruption. The USA would be number one in the world for that..then that's another story for another day.
I don’t know Zelenski’s net worth, 41$ million would be not an amazing amount that he could have earned as a very popular comedian both in Ukraine and Russia. Was it properly taxed? Who knows. In either case does not sound to me like a reason for a war. It's not. Panama papers involved many people and many countries, Russia as well.
Mentiong corruption in Ukraine as a some sort of justification is outrageous considering corruption levels in Russia.

Again, financial corruption is not the issue here.

 

[Borge H]

Doug, I have the greatest respect for you and all the mods, admins and owners of RFF. Best forum I’ve ever been a member of. It’s the only forum I'm currently a member of.

However, I can’t help feeling that this thread is the beginning of the end of RFF.

I hope I’m wrong.

All the best,
Mike

I agree with your post. It's a little sad to read some posts in this thread. People that I previously read with interest their posts about photography and were inspired by their pictures now only make me sad. I do not understand how one can even want to justify a war of aggression? In my professional career, I have avoided talking about what I stand for politically in my workplaces. It is easier to collaborate with people then and respect their professional skills.

Maybe there is an "ignore" feature that I can use so I do not see some posts? Otherwise it would be a good thing to introduce. Or perhaps limit political debates?

Personally, I am deeply touched by the refugee stories we see, with women and children massacred not far from my country in Europe. I thought we evolved as humans beyond that. The desperate Russian mothers who were told in a small Siberian village by their mayor that their young sons had been "consumed" in Ukraine by the Russian army make me deeply sad.

Which potential master photographers or writers have now been lost? For what?

 

[raid]

RFF may be losing members here by not having a better moderation strategy for such explosive topics. Am I right?

 

[jonmanjiro]

Raid, I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. It's impossible to know. You're still here posting... me too... 😉

I think we've had considerably more "explosive" threads several times in the past though... and RFF is still here (I actually think this particular thread has been way more civil in comparison). Those threads ran their course, they slid off the top page, and then people forgot about them. The same will happen with this thread too eventually.

I think Emile's comment below is spot on. I don't think any of us are going to change anyone else's mind about the topics here. Perhaps that slide would happen a little faster if we kept this in mind before posting?

Bottom line..
Aint no one a gonna change anyone else's mind..
No matter what they say.. or provide as evidence..not going to happen..

 

[raid]

I post at RFF not because of this thread or any other thread that is not about photography, Jon. Life is too short to make it miserable because of some online thread. There used to exist a Soviet Union, and it became "the Former Soviet Union", so to speak. Is this war about creating " a Former Russia"? Just a thought. Does this world "need" Russia in place? Just a thought.