Increasing demand at professional labs: Detailed Numbers

[chipgreenberg]

I'll second this. I've been using the FIND lab. They are owned and run by young people. They understand websites, social media. They do a great job scanning, deliver my files for download and have several options regarding returning my negatives. They seem to be editorial/wedding/Portra/400h centric. There are a bunch of labs like this now.

Do I LOVE sending my film in the mail? No. But that's where the market is now. I shoot for fun. When photography paid the bills the days take never left your (or your assistant's) side till it hit the lab. If I was shooting high dollar weddings and sending my film by mail I'd be nervous. I use priority mail and haven't had a problem.

Interestingly while googling around on this topic I found there is still a lab in Albuquerque, a city MUCH smaller than Chicago or Philly that runs C41 daily. Been there 32 years. May have to give them a try.

It indeed is an interesting discussion. I observe that some models are shifting, observe how the hip labs that work mail order and scan, sending the files through cloud platforms are having good business. Carmencita lab in Spain grew this last 5 years to process about 6K rolls a day, from a tiny minilab garage operation, and they seem to be quite an important presence with a catchment area up to Russia. The editorial and wedding scene, which are their main clients, seem to shoot happily Portra and 400H.


OTOH I'm in a student city of 200K in Sweden and joined the local camera club. It keeps a solid film group and 2 darkrooms but we are just about 25-30 people subscribed to use them freely. The local school offers a course on film that is taught in our premises.
The club grabbed a lot of free stuff from both from an aerial company and a school. 20+ Rolls of RC paper, a 4x5 durst enlarger and accesories, aerial rolls and a few other goodies. Ironically I was told that the school had a darkroom with 10 enlargers but chose to donate that paper and was buying fresh kentmere instead.

Of course, I'm not counting the possible many that are out there. Many students do shoot film. Yesterday I met a 33 year old who sold me some film overstock. I saw a kid in the pub shooting with a generic 80s P&S and non-chalantly flashing his friends.
There's a monthly open event for darkroom and occasionally a group of 19-22 year olds drop in, but they don't really seem very commited. But the % overall is low. Also, I noticed that spotting DSLRs is becoming rare.



We bought a couple E6 kits to do a developing pool this Spring. E6 does seem to sit on weaker ground.

 

[Prest_400]

Face it folks.

Film is a niche market.

The demand went down so much it had no where to go but up a little or it’s the bottom of the 9th.

Indeed Bill. However, what is important here is whether this niche is still decreasing or went growing again. The latter is very welcome for the manufacturers.
B&W is no issue given the smaller manufacturers, see Adox who are building a right sized factory. However, for color we've got Kodak, Fuji and perhaps a couple other players that aren't really into it (Inoviscoat uses Agfa tech and IIRC they provide negative material to Polaroid).


When it comes to Kodak, Motion Picture is the industry that provides the volume.
What I take away is how impressive it all has held in some way, given the drastic and brutal collapse of the market through the digital revolution. Parallel to writing this post I recalled some words by Jeff Clarke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f14HKk9k_lI
Fuji kicked the bucket on MP film long ago, and if the 30% adjustment works out to be for sustainability, it will be interesting.

I'll second this. I've been using the FIND lab. They are owned and run by young people. They understand websites, social media. They do a great job scanning, deliver my files for download and have several options regarding returning my negatives. They seem to be editorial/wedding/Portra/400h centric. There are a bunch of labs like this now.

Most probably their growth encompasses the closure of other labs, but it's a whole different model that seems to be thriving.

 

[chipgreenberg]

Could well be, but as long as there is a market I'm happy even if it's different from what it used to be

Most probably their growth encompasses the closure of other labs, but it's a whole different model that seems to be thriving.

 

[Steve M.]

You're probably talking about Picture Perfect lab off Menaul here in Abq chip. They know their stuff, and have excellent prices. Are they as good as doing it yourself at home? They certainly are for colour because I don't know how to develop it!

Nothing is better than developing and printing B&W yourself, is it? I can refer back to decades of negs in print files for just the right film/developer combinations (and more importantly, the ones that didn't work).

There's a real need for good neighborhood labs, but it's getting awfully difficult to find the right people and equipment to keep those going and make a profit. Photography students from the college work well here, but then they graduate, move away, etc and you have to retrain people all over again.

 

[splitimageview]

That is not true.
There is lots of evidence.

Unfortunately, the OP just mentioned anecdotal evidence of a single film lab. There are, of course, other such labs that have seen growth as thousands of other labs have died off.

As stated earlier, a few exceptions can be simply explained as businesses that are executing a well designed business plan.

A static or dying industry can still have individual companies experiencing rapid growth, so where is the evidence that disproves this is the case, and that it is growth across the entire industry, and not just happening with a small handful of players?

That's all we are asking, so far, no such evidence has been presented.

And all these film companies - independently from each other - explained the same: The film market has changed to the positive. And this change is significant. Some markets and product groups have had already 30-50% growth p.a.. And most have seen at least 5-10% growth rates.
That are the facts. Period.

OK, then let's see these facts, with independent confirmation, not just data straight from the manufacturers who will benefit the most by putting on a positive spin.

With regards to 'growth' : compared to what, as I inquired before?

Be specific.

Lastly, this is a free marketplace of ideas here, it's unwise to refer to others in the discussion as 'bashers' or 'armchair experts' or 'doom and gloom prayers.' This serves no positive purpose.

If you have the facts, as you claim, simply present them to back up your argument.

 

[chipgreenberg]

Hi Steve:

Yes that's the place. I shoot color so may try them. At least I'll find out what they use to scan and discuss my preferences. If I can avoid mailing film so much the better.

You're probably talking about Picture Perfect lab off Menaul here in Abq chip. They know their stuff, and have excellent prices. Are they as good as doing it yourself at home? They certainly are for colour because I don't know how to develop it!

Nothing is better than developing and printing B&W yourself, is it? I can refer back to decades of negs in print files for just the right film/developer combinations (and more importantly, the ones that didn't work).

There's a real need for good neighborhood labs, but it's getting awfully difficult to find the right people and equipment to keep those going and make a profit. Photography students from the college work well here, but then they graduate, move away, etc and you have to retrain people all over again.

 

[Ted Striker]

That's all we are asking, so far, no such evidence has been presented.

Lots of squawking but as you noted, no evidence presented at all. Very interesting.

 

[Skiff]

That's all we are asking, so far, no such evidence has been presented.

It has been presented here again and again. But the facts are always ignored by the doom-and-gloom prayers. Just look in the history of this subforum, there are several threads about new labs. Some months ago over at photrio there was a thread in which numbers of dozens of labs were presented, all have seen increasing demand.

But: Who knows the film sales numbers best? The film manufacturers and film distributors.
Ant they have all been there at last Photokina:
Kodak
Fuji
Ilford
Foma
Adox.
All of them have said that the market has changed, and that they see increasing demand. And they have taken action because of that: Kodak has re-introduced TMZ and Ektachrome, Fuji has reintroduced E6 sheet film and new 3pack for C200 and X-Tra 400, and they have invested in a new online portal for film, Ilford has new chemistry packs for beginners and new marketing, Foma retropan Soft, Adox is even building a complete new factory and will put new products like HR-50, CHS 100 II, Polywarmtone Paper and a BW reversal kit on the market soon.

And the big international distributors like B&H, FS, Fotoimpex, ars-imago, Punto, Labo-Argentique/Bergger etc. also all said that they have significantly increasing demand.

The increasing demand is also shown by the exploding activities concerning film on youtube, instagram and facebook.

With regards to 'growth' : compared to what, as I inquired before?

Compared to the time of the all time low, the bottom of the market.
Depending on the region, and depending on the product the all time low(s) were in the time frame from 2014 to 2017.

 

[jsrockit]

Let’s not forget the increase in prices for film cameras over the last two years. I don’t think anyone thinks the numbers haven’t gone up. We just may not be as optimistic for a full blown renaissance. I hope we are wrong. It’s great to have choices.

Here in Santiago Chile, they have a semi new lab that does great work. It’s expensive though. Most people seem to be using lower end film cameras here, but we do have a few Facebook groups selling nicer equipment. Mostly when I’m out photographing I see digital cameras.

 

[brbo]

Fuji has reintroduced E6 sheet film

Which films exactly?

 

[Out to Lunch]

Here in Santiago Chile, they have a semi new lab that does great work. It’s expensive though. Most people seem to be using lower end film cameras here, but we do have a few Facebook groups selling nicer equipment. Mostly when I’m out photographing I see digital cameras.

In Ho Chi Minh City, the situation is very similar. There is a film revival with a lot of younger shooters but it remains a rather expensive niche market.

 

[Prest_400]

I recall some discussion about new labs in Thailand, which attracted a good amount of customers and there was a case where one was much more than just a minilab operation but they also had a rental darkroom.

Let’s not forget the increase in prices for film cameras over the last two years. I don’t think anyone thinks the numbers haven’t gone up. We just may not be as optimistic for a full blown renaissance. I hope we are wrong. It’s great to have choices.

Here in Santiago Chile, they have a semi new lab that does great work. It’s expensive though. Most people seem to be using lower end film cameras here, but we do have a few Facebook groups selling nicer equipment. Mostly when I’m out photographing I see digital cameras.

The good ones indeed, many Medium Format cameras.


I live in a student city and I do notice that I don't actually spot DSLRs that often. Of course film cameras much less given the proportion, but cellphones took the role of snapshot and might have replaced that low end DSLR for many.

 

[splitimageview]

It has been presented here again and again. But the facts are always ignored by the doom-and-gloom prayers. Just look in the history of this subforum, there are several threads about new labs. Some months ago over at photrio there was a thread in which numbers of dozens of labs were presented, all have seen increasing demand.

But: Who knows the film sales numbers best? The film manufacturers and film distributors.
Ant they have all been there at last Photokina:
Kodak
Fuji
Ilford
Foma
Adox.
All of them have said that the market has changed, and that they see increasing demand. And they have taken action because of that: Kodak has re-introduced TMZ and Ektachrome, Fuji has reintroduced E6 sheet film and new 3pack for C200 and X-Tra 400, and they have invested in a new online portal for film, Ilford has new chemistry packs for beginners and new marketing, Foma retropan Soft, Adox is even building a complete new factory and will put new products like HR-50, CHS 100 II, Polywarmtone Paper and a BW reversal kit on the market soon.

And the big international distributors like B&H, FS, Fotoimpex, ars-imago, Punto, Labo-Argentique/Bergger etc. also all said that they have significantly increasing demand.

The increasing demand is also shown by the exploding activities concerning film on youtube, instagram and facebook.



Compared to the time of the all time low, the bottom of the market.
Depending on the region, and depending on the product the all time low(s) were in the time frame from 2014 to 2017.

Actually the peak was 2003, according to Fujifilm:

“The film market peaked in 2003 with 960 million rolls of film, today it represents roughly 2% of that,” says Manny Almeida, president of Fujifilm’s imaging division in North America.

If indeed there is increasing demand it's tiny growth in a very small niche.

Still waiting for real data. How about some financial statements, for example, not just comments from marketing departments? If the growth is real, present the sales data, rather than simply claim the "growth is a fact" while disparaging those that have valid arguments to the contrary.

 

[Skiff]

Which films exactly?

Provia 100F in 8x10" and Velvia 100 in 4x5" and 8x10".

 

[Skiff]

Actually the peak was 2003, according to Fujifilm:

“The film market peaked in 2003 with 960 million rolls of film, today it represents roughly 2% of that,” says Manny Almeida, president of Fujifilm’s imaging division in North America.

That was the number for the North American market only.
The global market had its peak in 1999/2000 with about 3 billion rolls (source: Fujifilm Japan), and/or according to the PMA in 2001/2002 with about 3.5 billion rolls (including all formats and SUC). You will find this data in R. Shanebrooks book "Making Kodak Film" on page 267.
The GfK (big global market research company) published a number of 2.8 billion rolls for 1994/95.

Still waiting for real data. How about some financial statements, for example, not just comments from marketing departments?

For almost a decade now the global market research companies did not collect data anymore. And before that you had to pay lots of money for the data.
Now only the manufacturers, the distributors and small independent market researchers have the data (and we talked to them, not to "marketing people"). I've worked for decades as a professional photographer, lot's of excellent contacts remained.
Ilford e.g. had +9% in film sales in 2017, Kodak +5 to +20% depending on the market. Bergger had delivery problems because the batch of Pancro 400 IC made for them has been sold in only one year instaed of the expected two years. Fotoimpex explained they have double digit growth for years. Fujifilm Europe had massive film backorders, because demand surpassed supply in first half of 2018. Fujifilm introduced the new Maxima high-quality silver-halide paper at Photokina. JOBO is introducing new lab gear because of increasing demand (they were very satiesfied with demand from the Photokina, too). Just some examples from the last Photokina.

Again:
All the major companies in this industry have introduced new products, are currently working on new products and / or have started numerous marketing efforts. All very clear signs of the recent positive market change.

 

[JeffS7444]

It's already been posted elsewhere, but in this recent presentation, Mirko Böddecker of ADOX gave a very lucid commentary on the state of film market and the challenges in keeping it healthy:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4-WLDm-e8A


And I for one am cautiously optimistic that ADOX will be around for awhile 🙂

 

[brbo]

Provia 100F in 8x10" and Velvia 100 in 4x5" and 8x10".

When were they discontinued?!

And I for one am cautiously optimistic that ADOX will be around for awhile 🙂

I don't care about ADOX (although I wish them all the best). BW film will be around for the next 50 years with or without them. Not so sure about colour films without Fuji or Kodak making them.

 

[Skiff]

When were they discontinued?!

They were on the internal list for discontinuation, but then Fujifilm cancelled that decision and kept them in the line because of the positive market changes.

 

[JeffS7444]

Not so sure about colour films without Fuji or Kodak making them.

Depends on how well they can scale down their operations to meet 21st century realities. Did you check out the video? Böddecker illustrates just how massive some of the older factories were.

 

[Skiff]

Depends on how well they can scale down their operations to meet 21st century realities. Did you check out the video? Böddecker illustrates just how massive some of the older factories were.

Both already had scaled down to fit the lowest demand some time ago when demand was at its all time low.
Now with increasing demand they most probably can keep the lines running.
Kodak is demonstrating it by re-introduced TMZ and Ektachrome. Fujifilm by producing niche products like Velvia 50 and Provia / Velvia 100 sheet film.