Jay Decker
Meat Robot
I wholeheartedly agree with you! I do think that creativity, tools (camera gear), materials, and creative results are all related.
All artists discuss tools. The more technical the tools and materials used for an art form, the more discussion of the tools and materials there is. If you listen to artists who make bronze sculptures talk amongst themselves, you will hear more discussion of tools than with charcoal sketch artists. However, you still hear charcoal sketch artists discuss technically related things amongst themselves, e.g., textures of various papers, etc.
Here's how I ended up here... I returned to shooting film for the aesthetic and a number of other reasons after trying digital. When shooting film outdoors in daylight, I use filters. When I put filters on my medium format SLR's, the monochromatic image makes it more difficult to focus and, sometimes, distracts me from the subject. I thought about trying a rangefinder, but I was not sure that I would have the creative control I wanted with a rangefinder. Eventually, I found the RFF website and saw the results that the RFF contributors where sharing. And, I started learning about the tools they use to achieve their results. I now have a few medium format and 35mm rangefinder cameras and I starting to feel good about some of my results with a rangefinder.
martin s
Well-known
I should put this in my signature. 2 weeks of not having broadband to my 24/7 availabilty made me shoot _a lot more. A lot more crap, as I'm seeing now, but nevertheless.
martin
gavinlg
Veteran
Yes, mindless gear talk and internet forums definitely pulls me away from creativity. My biggest problem in photography is thinking about it instead of doing it, or stuffing around with cheap cameras - yes it's fun, but in the end it's what you do with your gear and what you make with it.
In the end - all I really need is basic DSLR and a 35mm lens. From there you have a brilliant camera and a brilliant lens and the world at your feet with only the extent to which your imagination can grow as a hurdle.
Same goes for just about any zeiss or leica or olympus or nikon or pentax outfit, or Film or digital or polaroid. See where I'm going with this?
In the end - all I really need is basic DSLR and a 35mm lens. From there you have a brilliant camera and a brilliant lens and the world at your feet with only the extent to which your imagination can grow as a hurdle.
Same goes for just about any zeiss or leica or olympus or nikon or pentax outfit, or Film or digital or polaroid. See where I'm going with this?
Compare the intelligence and depth of knowledge from regular posters on this forum in the first year or two it existed with the stuff that is mostly posted now.
When before, this forum was a source of concise, expert knowledge of both obscure gear and esoteric photographic technique, 99% of what is posted now is befuddled nonsense by the profoundly clueless. There is rank silliness which eaten up by middle-aged newbies en masse.
Or worse, the vast majority of posts are from highly neurotic people in search of some sort of psychological fufillment which they believe will be obtained by using gear they don't understand.
The latter have driven out almost all of the former, sometimes by force when the clueless have been given the power of regulating content of the advanced intelligentsia.
I supposed all online forums have cycles which include heydays and declines.
When before, this forum was a source of concise, expert knowledge of both obscure gear and esoteric photographic technique, 99% of what is posted now is befuddled nonsense by the profoundly clueless. There is rank silliness which eaten up by middle-aged newbies en masse.
Or worse, the vast majority of posts are from highly neurotic people in search of some sort of psychological fufillment which they believe will be obtained by using gear they don't understand.
The latter have driven out almost all of the former, sometimes by force when the clueless have been given the power of regulating content of the advanced intelligentsia.
I supposed all online forums have cycles which include heydays and declines.
Gumby
Veteran
An interesting perspective. At times I can see where you are coming from.
underground
D-Mac
This is a place where creative minds interact.
Some are starting their journey, and some are completing
their journey. In my opinion you should take this for what it is worth. So Is it worth more or less? It's up to the individual.
Some are starting their journey, and some are completing
their journey. In my opinion you should take this for what it is worth. So Is it worth more or less? It's up to the individual.
willie_901
Veteran
Joe,
It's really a matter of balance.
It's easy to loose perspective and get stuck in the gear side. It's also possible to ignore technical issues and spin one's wheels (unknowingly) in the creative realm. Understanding the technical impact of the diverse array of photography equipment available to use can empower creativity.
Assuming we strive to create and express ourselves, each of us is responsible for not letting gear issues, internet forums, or any other distraction from derailing our creative productivity.
It's really a matter of balance.
It's easy to loose perspective and get stuck in the gear side. It's also possible to ignore technical issues and spin one's wheels (unknowingly) in the creative realm. Understanding the technical impact of the diverse array of photography equipment available to use can empower creativity.
Assuming we strive to create and express ourselves, each of us is responsible for not letting gear issues, internet forums, or any other distraction from derailing our creative productivity.
imajypsee
no expiration date
I don't have time to read all the previous posts this morning
I don't have time to read all the previous posts this morning
but I will later... just wanted to jump in and say (type) that reading here on RFF has been better than any tell all book/autobiography I've ever read. The fact that -- and here I apologize if I seem to be profiling the contributors -- mostly men discuss and explore in depth how they think (and, it seems, feel) about various subjects relating to their inner lives is riveting to me. I read here because it's a good read.
To answer a question posed by the Back Alley:
YES!! you should, only you should NOT post it to flickr because flickr is WAY too limiting in how you can present your work as a body of work. You should get out and photograph what you see around you, that which you know and love, and put it up in context, not a stream or daily blog. Photographs exist in a relationship to other photographs and need all the parts to make the whole. Look at how you live, what you have around you. Is it just bits of unrelated detritus? Probably not. You choose "stuff" that fits with your other "stuff." Think that way with your photography.
off the soapbox now....
Mary in SW Florida, USA
I don't have time to read all the previous posts this morning
but I will later... just wanted to jump in and say (type) that reading here on RFF has been better than any tell all book/autobiography I've ever read. The fact that -- and here I apologize if I seem to be profiling the contributors -- mostly men discuss and explore in depth how they think (and, it seems, feel) about various subjects relating to their inner lives is riveting to me. I read here because it's a good read.
To answer a question posed by the Back Alley:
YES!! you should, only you should NOT post it to flickr because flickr is WAY too limiting in how you can present your work as a body of work. You should get out and photograph what you see around you, that which you know and love, and put it up in context, not a stream or daily blog. Photographs exist in a relationship to other photographs and need all the parts to make the whole. Look at how you live, what you have around you. Is it just bits of unrelated detritus? Probably not. You choose "stuff" that fits with your other "stuff." Think that way with your photography.
off the soapbox now....
Mary in SW Florida, USA
robertfoster
Newbie
good thougths... i personally think it's difficult to combine both worlds. most of the boards outside are more tech- or creative-related. both kinds at once are really rare. especially when you want to discuss on a higher level.
i can speak only for myself, but i don't want to talk about sharpness and shooting bricks all the day. generally it's interesting how lenses behave but everything can be overplayed. i like the creative aspect in photograhpy even more and stunning pictures can attract me for hours. this is the part of the net everyone can benefit from one another: learn from well taken pictures. increase your own abilities and get better by watching pictures you admire.
that is the main advantage of our age, it was never easier to exchange about photos, exceed your knowledge about technical subjects on photography. there is only one thing which you should have in mind - great photos usual don't lie. the half knowledge in technical parts of our passion are sometimes really big. so don't trust anything - without using your own intelligence - on the internet.
and at last: don't forget to take photos
full ack to mary!
robert
i can speak only for myself, but i don't want to talk about sharpness and shooting bricks all the day. generally it's interesting how lenses behave but everything can be overplayed. i like the creative aspect in photograhpy even more and stunning pictures can attract me for hours. this is the part of the net everyone can benefit from one another: learn from well taken pictures. increase your own abilities and get better by watching pictures you admire.
that is the main advantage of our age, it was never easier to exchange about photos, exceed your knowledge about technical subjects on photography. there is only one thing which you should have in mind - great photos usual don't lie. the half knowledge in technical parts of our passion are sometimes really big. so don't trust anything - without using your own intelligence - on the internet.
and at last: don't forget to take photos
full ack to mary!robert
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
this is all i had to say
so shoot if you like to shoot, chat if you like to chat, post if you like to post, and in the meanwhile enjoy your life.
DougFord
on the good foot
[FONT="]My web surfing adds to my visual and auditory experiences (still waiting for the scratch’n sniff interface). These experiences contribute to both conscience and sub-conscience connections and perceptions used in my creative process.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Ergo, web surfing, is beneficial to my creative endeavors.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Ergo, web surfing, is beneficial to my creative endeavors.[/FONT]
NathanJD
Well-known
So why can't people just want to know stuff without these silly ulterior motives? and why should it be anyone else’s business why or what they do with their time?
it strikes me that too many people here are too hung up with everyone else’s personal lives and that itch to pass ill evidenced comment on matters of someone's life proves far too strong far too often.
I don't care how prolific or talented a photographer across the pond form me is, I’m just pleased for them for having a go.
This is a forum not a school or business so why should it be making HCBs out of all of us as long as we enjoy what we are doing?
it strikes me that too many people here are too hung up with everyone else’s personal lives and that itch to pass ill evidenced comment on matters of someone's life proves far too strong far too often.
I don't care how prolific or talented a photographer across the pond form me is, I’m just pleased for them for having a go.
This is a forum not a school or business so why should it be making HCBs out of all of us as long as we enjoy what we are doing?
shayallen
Established
There are not any places in Birmingham Alabama to learn about Range finders gear or photography so this site has been the only thing I have had! People have also been very nice to respond to my private messages about photography. I went to my local camera club last night and there was only one other person using film at this photography outing and only one old photographer that noticed my Leica. I did have a little fun with this one photographer that was telling me about his 20lbs. F4 super zoom. I asked him to help me find where to put an SD card in my M7!
robertfoster
Newbie
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
The web is an inexpensive way to see a lot of photography in a short amount of time. But the reality is that, if you want to be a photographer at the top of his/her game, you have to shoot photos, lots of photos of lots of things, and do it consistently. And that's not going to happen on the Internet.
Having said that, I think it's fair to say that most folks posting here are hobbyists and chatting about photography on Internet forums is part of the hobby, along with vacation snaps and photos of the kids and buying and selling gear.
It's been my observation that when someone decides to go beyond the hobbyist stage, they start to post less and less, or stop posting completely.
Having said that, I think it's fair to say that most folks posting here are hobbyists and chatting about photography on Internet forums is part of the hobby, along with vacation snaps and photos of the kids and buying and selling gear.
It's been my observation that when someone decides to go beyond the hobbyist stage, they start to post less and less, or stop posting completely.
back alley
IMAGES
...It's been my observation that when someone decides to go beyond the hobbyist stage, they start to post less and less, or stop posting completely...
how would you know that if they stopped posting?
they could be dead from a heart attack for all you know.
how would you know that if they stopped posting?
they could be dead from a heart attack for all you know.
chris000
Landscaper
I spend time here when I am not out photographing but I never spend time here instead of going out photographing.
Gear related threads are of little interest to me but no-one forces me to read them so I don't (or at least only rarely). Some of the photography related threads are fascinating and I always like to see images (and some posted on here are very good indeed).
So, let's leave room here for every one and if there are subjects or opinions that I don't subscribe to, I simply ignore them.
Gear related threads are of little interest to me but no-one forces me to read them so I don't (or at least only rarely). Some of the photography related threads are fascinating and I always like to see images (and some posted on here are very good indeed).
So, let's leave room here for every one and if there are subjects or opinions that I don't subscribe to, I simply ignore them.
x-ray
Veteran
Dead on the money.
There are a few creative minds here but the vast majority are gear freaks.
kermaier
Well-known
I think gear talk, per se, neither stifles creativity nor boosts it -- it's tangential, or even orthogonal, to creativity. The way I see it, there are 3 main reasons for being strongly interested in camera equipment and in discussing it with others:
1. Cameras as image-making devices: This is the interest in knowing more about how the equipment can help you take better pictures, and in sharing that knowledge with others. In this case, the creativity and desire to make pictures comes from within, and gear-talk is really just about understanding the tools of the art/craft. It's like painters discussing how various combinations of brush bristles, paint formulations and canvas can be used to produce different effects in a painting. I have trouble imagining that this is objectionable on RFF.
2. Interest in the physical properties of optics, image capture media, output media, etc. Without scientists and engineers (and hobbyist-amateurs as well) who are interested in image-making, there would be no camera equipment at all, so I would not dare to denigrate this sort of obsession in any way.
3. Appreciation of fine cameras and lenses as objects of beauty and history. Samurai swords are items of beauty, craftsmanship and engineering, and are appreciated today largely in those terms, since very few people nowadays use them for their intended purpose. People who collect vintage automobiles, corkscrews, coins, whatever -- may approach them primarily as finely crafted objects, and only secondarily as tools for an specific job. This is not related to artistic creativity at all, but is certainly a "valid" basis for interest in gear.
These points of view are not mutually exclusive, either -- many a serious artist enjoys his equipment for its own sake. (That didn't come out right.)
I don't think contributions to the collective creativity of the forum members is a reasonable criterion for judging the value of gear-related posts on RFF. Only art/creativity-related posts should be judged by that criterion.
I can certainly understand that those who don't need or wish to know anything more about their gear find such discussions useless and annoying, and would prefer that RFF not devote so much space to them. But that is not a reason, IMO, for mocking or denigrating those who are interested in such discussions. That sentiment really goes to the question of what is the purpose of RFF? Is it a forum for true artists and experts to hold forth and disburse their hard-won wisdom, or is it a forum for all photography enthusiasts -- of pictures as well as of gear -- to converse at their various levels of sophistication?
As to the general quality of discourse and information on RFF today vs. a few years ago: That may be an unfortunate result of the recent and rapid spread of internet technologies that foster personal expression. I think people increasingly tend to treat discussion forums like they would blogs or twitter, where the mere fact that communication is taking place is at least as important, psychologically, as the content. This criticism, IMO, is entirely justified: The response that "if the posts bore you then look away" is appropriate when talking about people's blogs. But pollution of public forums with nonsense and misinformation just to feel a part of things is akin to yapping incessantly on your cell phone at a cocktail party -- it serves only the yapper, and drives away everyone else, ruining the party.
I'm not sure the above is even worth 2 cents, but there it is anyway.
::Ari
1. Cameras as image-making devices: This is the interest in knowing more about how the equipment can help you take better pictures, and in sharing that knowledge with others. In this case, the creativity and desire to make pictures comes from within, and gear-talk is really just about understanding the tools of the art/craft. It's like painters discussing how various combinations of brush bristles, paint formulations and canvas can be used to produce different effects in a painting. I have trouble imagining that this is objectionable on RFF.
2. Interest in the physical properties of optics, image capture media, output media, etc. Without scientists and engineers (and hobbyist-amateurs as well) who are interested in image-making, there would be no camera equipment at all, so I would not dare to denigrate this sort of obsession in any way.
3. Appreciation of fine cameras and lenses as objects of beauty and history. Samurai swords are items of beauty, craftsmanship and engineering, and are appreciated today largely in those terms, since very few people nowadays use them for their intended purpose. People who collect vintage automobiles, corkscrews, coins, whatever -- may approach them primarily as finely crafted objects, and only secondarily as tools for an specific job. This is not related to artistic creativity at all, but is certainly a "valid" basis for interest in gear.
These points of view are not mutually exclusive, either -- many a serious artist enjoys his equipment for its own sake. (That didn't come out right.)
I don't think contributions to the collective creativity of the forum members is a reasonable criterion for judging the value of gear-related posts on RFF. Only art/creativity-related posts should be judged by that criterion.
I can certainly understand that those who don't need or wish to know anything more about their gear find such discussions useless and annoying, and would prefer that RFF not devote so much space to them. But that is not a reason, IMO, for mocking or denigrating those who are interested in such discussions. That sentiment really goes to the question of what is the purpose of RFF? Is it a forum for true artists and experts to hold forth and disburse their hard-won wisdom, or is it a forum for all photography enthusiasts -- of pictures as well as of gear -- to converse at their various levels of sophistication?
As to the general quality of discourse and information on RFF today vs. a few years ago: That may be an unfortunate result of the recent and rapid spread of internet technologies that foster personal expression. I think people increasingly tend to treat discussion forums like they would blogs or twitter, where the mere fact that communication is taking place is at least as important, psychologically, as the content. This criticism, IMO, is entirely justified: The response that "if the posts bore you then look away" is appropriate when talking about people's blogs. But pollution of public forums with nonsense and misinformation just to feel a part of things is akin to yapping incessantly on your cell phone at a cocktail party -- it serves only the yapper, and drives away everyone else, ruining the party.
I'm not sure the above is even worth 2 cents, but there it is anyway.
::Ari
BillBingham2
Registered User
I think the signal to noise ratio is very interesting but unlike SSB transmissions what is noise and what is signal is very relative to the recipient. Even within myself I find that over the years what I am interested in has changed. Maturing, sliding sideways, perhaps even immaturing one might call it. These days I’m a Nikonaholic, but I’m still very interested in rangefinders and even MF/LF stuff. I like to learn about everything, even if it’s not of particular importance at that time. I like to hear about different perspectives, experiences, approaches, successes and failures as it is how I challenge myself to improve and grow. Quite frankly, most of the TV boars the crap out of me. Escapism is fun to a point but it’s not me.
When we talk about equipment we almost always speak about good point, ideas, solutions, bad experiences and some times they only way I get a chance to learn about these things is here. Odds are that I will never own an M8/9. From what I’ve read it does not meet my needs now. Someday if I go back to trying to make money with a camera perhaps that will change. I know some of her strengths and if the value proposition swings that way I know I can make an informed decision.
I do not think we are just a gear site, that’s the main focus but so much more value comes out with respect to photography I think those that say that are missing a large part RFF.
Now learning about different cultures, opinions, and stuff in general from all over the world is for me another LARGE positive part of RFF. I read opinions based upon their news reports, first hand experiences and alike that give me insight into other cultures that I would never have without places like RFF and CVUG. I hear about people in need of help, suffering the same things that I am, get ideas on solution to things outside of photography I never would have come up with on my own. I meet (virtually) great people (Tom A., Bill P) that I would never have the chance to these days (kids and responsibilities slow down fun travel and jobs).
There is so much more to hear than gear. It’s a common thread, perhaps the binding agent. Does reading it slow me down with shooting, heck no. I do RFF at late at night or to take a break when I’m thinking.
B2
When we talk about equipment we almost always speak about good point, ideas, solutions, bad experiences and some times they only way I get a chance to learn about these things is here. Odds are that I will never own an M8/9. From what I’ve read it does not meet my needs now. Someday if I go back to trying to make money with a camera perhaps that will change. I know some of her strengths and if the value proposition swings that way I know I can make an informed decision.
I do not think we are just a gear site, that’s the main focus but so much more value comes out with respect to photography I think those that say that are missing a large part RFF.
Now learning about different cultures, opinions, and stuff in general from all over the world is for me another LARGE positive part of RFF. I read opinions based upon their news reports, first hand experiences and alike that give me insight into other cultures that I would never have without places like RFF and CVUG. I hear about people in need of help, suffering the same things that I am, get ideas on solution to things outside of photography I never would have come up with on my own. I meet (virtually) great people (Tom A., Bill P) that I would never have the chance to these days (kids and responsibilities slow down fun travel and jobs).
There is so much more to hear than gear. It’s a common thread, perhaps the binding agent. Does reading it slow me down with shooting, heck no. I do RFF at late at night or to take a break when I’m thinking.
B2