Is Cosina Asleep at the Wheel?

I was hoping they would release a new version of their Nokton 50mm f1.5 (what a great value lens). I suspect they won't due to the Sonnar, but I was still hopeful as the Sonnar has such a distinct rendering that I was thinking Voightlander/Zeiss might not see a more "traditional" lens as being competition - well, that was my dream anyway.
 
jonmanjiro said:
FWIW I remember reading on a Japanese website that Epson expected to sell 10,000 R-D1(s) cameras per year, but sales ended up being around 10,000 cameras in total. Unfortunately, I cannot remember for the life of me where I read it, and googling didn't find anything.
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Hi Jon

Something i don quite understand, is it really a lack of technology that only leica produced or owned the best technology in terms of digital rangefinder?

Why would Epson come out with so many versions of the RD rangefinder and limiting them to just 6MP? I mean given its start, they shouldnt have much issue to build a comparable rf with the leica m8 or m9 and cost reasonably lower than leica...

Why wont cosina even consider going into the digital rf line???
 
cosina needs a thrid party to go digital .......

cosina needs a thrid party to go digital .......

Pikapig said:
Hi Jon

Something i don quite understand, is it really a lack of technology that only leica produced or owned the best technology in terms of digital rangefinder?

Why would Epson come out with so many versions of the RD rangefinder and limiting them to just 6MP? I mean given its start, they shouldnt have much issue to build a comparable rf with the leica m8 or m9 and cost reasonably lower than leica...

Why wont cosina even consider going into the digital rf line???
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I have read a bit about M-K on the web, and here on this forum, and it seems that his personal focus in really on film, and that is driven through in the CV brand line. Not a bad thing at all.

While I have not really looked, I'd be willing to bet that the bread and butter of CV is NOT the CV brand, but rather what they make for other people. If some third party were to approach M-K with a good proposal a-la Epson, I'd be willing to bet he would be happy to supply the bits and engineering to make a digital FM or a CV M8, or what ever .....

Point being, his personal drive in his Friday afternoon project is film.

Dave
 
jsrockit said:
Hmmm, they just released a new 35mm 1.2 lens, a 75mm 1.8 lens, and a m4/3 25mm 0.95 lens in the past year... that's a lot.

I'd argue that Cosina has done more for rangefinder photography in the last 10 years than Leica has... since they made it very affordable.
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I'd say no question about that, much as I'd love an MP, I can't justify the green. Cosina make access to fast lenses viable, and brand new cameras which you don't need to be wealthy to afford.

The R4A/M provides frame lines never seen in a Leica, the Bessa III/GF670 is outstanding and beautiful to behold.

Cosina make more interesting cameras than Leica, more affordable cameras than Leica, and are far more dedicated to film.

Leica make lovely kit, but I'd probably rather see them go bankrupt than Cosina.

I look forward to the next Cosina announcement more than Leica, as it'll likely be an actual new camera or lens, and not a (very pretty) cosmetic change to an existing one.
 
I am going to use every opportunity to ask Cosina to produce Ultron 35/1.7 version II.
It can be LTM or M -mount, I don't mind either.
What improvement? A shorter barrel, and a closer focusing distance than 90cm. That's it.

Thank you.
 
Long thread, dunno if anyone mentioned this already but the first thing that occurred to me was they had a massive flood and nuclear disaster in Japan recently. I hope the recovery from that is going well.
 
Leica is a luxury goods company; many of their buyers don't look at the price. In that segment nobody really competes with Leica at all, which is why the company is still alive. If you are a luxury goods company in the world of the 2010s, you are effectively betting that somewhere in the world the income distribution is unequal enough, while the overall income base is wide enough, that there will be enough people indulging in luxury spending. Currently that seems to be East Asia; ten years from now it might be Europe again. I don't see Cosina in that market at all.
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If those "Occupy Whatever" protestors had an inkling what folks pay for any type of camera with the "L" word on it - they'd be setting up a virtual squatters camp at RRF, picketing wanton financial greed, and relieving themselves all over the place.

Occupy RRF - re-distribute the Leica wealth!!!
 
There would be no "rangefinder culture" if not for CV. They resurrected the Leica brand by bringing afforadable optics to folks who werent going to buy Leica glass but wanted a body to buy into the mystique.

I've got a 21, 28, 35 Cv lenses, and they are all wonderful performers at a decent price. I've sold my Leitz optics years ago and won't ever buy another, as they are mostly overpriced vanity pieces for people with too much money.
 
I really appreciate that they make a good 21, a fast 28, and a fast 35 since those are the only focal lengths and speeds that seem hard to find for less than Leitz prices.

If I was ever wealthy enough to afford Leica glass I would happily use it and I'm sure enjoy it quite a bit. Since I'm not and probably won't ever be I'm glad that Cosina makes it possible to use cameras and lenses that I like without feeling like I'm missing out :)
 
One of Mr K's successes is how to build short batches of lenses and cameras affordably and profitably. Meaning, you build a couple of thousand 35/1.7 Ultrons, then you discontinue that lens and use the same line to build another lens.

That's impossible for a digital RF, because of sensor, electronics and required firmware overhead. Either you have to manufacture many tens or hundreds of thousands of the same camera, or you are stuck with building a few thousand cameras at luxury prices (as the M9).

--

I really like my CV lenses. But I don't consider them cheap or particularly affordable. Because they aren't when compared to any other brand but Leica.

I would love a googled 180/2.8 for the Zeiss Ikon. Otherwise, I'm pretty happy with what is there :)

Roland.
 
Another big CV fan here. Have been happily using some of their lenses for years. Only recently bought one of the bodies, an R2M and to be quite honest if I'd got the Bessa before my M6ttl I never would have bothered getting the Leica. Would love to see a small, signature 50 1.4.
 
Ken Smith said:
If those "Occupy Whatever" protestors had an inkling what folks pay for any type of camera with the "L" word on it - they'd be setting up a virtual squatters camp at RRF, picketing wanton financial greed, and relieving themselves all over the place.
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And then they'd clean up after them while filming how champagne-sipping Leica owners laugh at them from balconies. ;)
Fear the Zorki militia! :D

Incidentally that should be "Occupy RFF" instead of RRF, after all we're not the rangerinderforum.
 
What does Cosina need? They cover 12mm to 90mm in various apertures.

Cosina has done more for rangefinder photography in the past few years than Leica. They make stuff for photographers. The same can't be said about Leica these days.
 
Cosina is the reason I started with RF's 35 years after I first gave them up. Mr K is a hero, nothing less. Let him make millions for all I care.
 
Ken Smith said:
If those "Occupy Whatever" protestors had an inkling what folks pay for any type of camera with the "L" word on it - they'd be setting up a virtual squatters camp at RRF, picketing wanton financial greed, and relieving themselves all over the place.

Occupy RRF - re-distribute the Leica wealth!!!
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Oh,... you got a little... there.. Yup right there on your chin.... Ope ah...little further right .... there you go... got it! OK, much better.. :p
 
If it weren't for Cosina I never would have been able to afford to get into rangefinders. Even now most of my lenses are CV's.
As to whether Cosina are 'asleep at the wheel', well who knows what their next 'big' release will be? I suspect that they are working on a number of 'new' product releases for next year and we will just have to be patient and wait and see what they are....
 
rxmd said:
It's a really small segment. It's misleading to think that, say, if Leica can sell 30.000 cameras at $7500, then the segment must be so big that it should be possible to sell, say, 120.000 cameras at $2500 (figuratively speaking). Leica is a luxury goods company; many of their buyers don't look at the price. In that segment nobody really competes with Leica at all, which is why the company is still alive. If you are a luxury goods company in the world of the 2010s, you are effectively betting that somewhere in the world the income distribution is unequal enough, while the overall income base is wide enough, that there will be enough people indulging in luxury spending. Currently that seems to be East Asia; ten years from now it might be Europe again. I don't see Cosina in that market at all.

In fact if Cosina made a digital rangefinder, I wouldn't expect them to sell more than those 30,000 cameras, even if they make a full-frame rangefinder for half of what Leica charges for it. How may film Bessas did they sell, overall? I'd assume a number in the low five digits (but I'm happy to stand corrected if someone actually knows). That only worked out because the R&D for the camera was basically done, except the rangefinder mechanism. On the other hand, I'm surprised that Fuji sold only 70,000 X100 cameras (I would have expected it to be more). Fuji was prudent to build a mass-market-compatible autofocus compact with a movie mode, instead of, say, a manual-focus rangefinder, which wouldn't have sold anywhere near as many. Even those 70,000 were sold largely because of its looks, where Cosina for all their merits traditionally aren't strong - the Bessas are not examples of industrial design, they are very plain and functionally OK cameras built to a price.

The R-D1 you mention was many things, but it was not a great success, nor an outstanding piece of industrial design. People complained about the $3000 price, but at that price it was already difficult to provide good service, the dealer network was spotty, there was no advertising, and R-D1 sales (here I'm speculating) probably didn't generate the extra R&D millions to warrant continued development of an R-D2. The R-D1 experience was not a good one, a bold move that didn't really work out.

The digital camera market is murderous. Places like the mirrorless market are no place for newcomers - can you name any single company that makes mirrorless cameras that hasn't been around all the time with their own digital camera brand for at least ten years? The only place for newcomers are the really crazy market niches (Lytro comes to mind) and for that, well-designed rangefinder-style retro cameras aren't crazy enough. Also, digital camera turnover is short; if you have a product, you can't really capitalize on it for more than 2-3 years before you have to come out with the next one. The R-D1 was dropped three years after introduction. Leica's position is already precarious enough; if they make one camera now that really tanks after sinking tens of R&D millions into it, Leica is basically bust. Leica goes into the mirrorless market now, but their market segment is the very-high-end and the luxury market; I'd be surprised if they made anything else than a very high-end, very expensive mirrorless.

Most prominently, Cosina is now in the very comfortable position. Camera-wise they have always been a low-end manufacturer, but now, as one of the last manufacturers of film cameras, they have a respectable brand that they never had before. Nowadays, film cameras are a rewarding sector, where R&D can be done with minimal investment if you already have your assembly line and in-house know-how, and where you can expect to keep selling a successful camera with minor modifications for ten years. Why would they trade that for the shark tank that is the lower medium digital camera market? I think that's where you are too dismissive of what you call "keep quiet I don't like change" responses; actually what I think those people mean (me included) is that it works very well for the company as it is, and they have little to gain and a lot to lose from jumping on the bandwagon of a highly competitive market with short product cycles.

Pretty much the only digital development I could see from Cosina is if someone at the company makes an in-house effort with their established SLR chassis and makes a version of it that has a platform for dropping a relatively low-cost sensor and electronics roughly in the place where the film went. That would open the way for producing the same electromechanical SLRs and rangefinders that Cosina has always been making, but with an affordable sensor in place of the film on an adapted platform. Think of an APS-sensor camera with classic SLR styling, like the Bessaflex series they had, where those old lenses actually work drop-in style. Spec-wise this would be a relatively low-end camera, the selling point would be classic lenses and operation; in other words another niche camera. What would kill it is probably low production numbers, though, and competition with the used digital camera market. That's why I doubt it will happen, because that market is full of capricious people that won't pay $1500 for a new crop-sensor, low-end camera if they can stick the same lens on a used 5D or Pentax and just live with the minor inconveniences like stop-down metering.

So if Cosina does build a digital camera, it will be for somebody else.
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Very good analysis, Philipp.
You wrote "The digital camera market is murderous."

Oh yes, indeed.
Had some interesting talks "behind the curtain" about that last Photokina. The margins for digital cameras are extremely low. The extremely short production cycle is a real problem to earn money and to get ROI. Most cameras are not developed to the end because of the short cycle and cost restrictions and get too early to the market. Therefore the need of further upgrades afterwords to get rid of the bugs and quirks. Banana ware.

Several reps from camera manufacturers told me they expect that 95% of the digtal camera manufacturers have to give up during the next decade. Currently there are about 100 different manufacturers in Asia, most of them in China doing OEM business (and PS cams). Most of them electronic companies in their origin which have added d-cam production to their product portfolio.

If Cosina is clever, they will stay away. It's probably easier to earn money in their current niche.

What I could imagine in the mid-term / long-term future from Cosina are new film cameras:
Well, let's have a look at the Bessa III / W. A complete surprise for all of us. But a smart move. I think they have made a detailed analysis of the market for used medium format cameras.
And they have seen that prices for more than 25 year old Plaubel Makina 67 models are still in the 900 - 1200€ range.
And probably they have thougt that if photographers are willing to spent such money on an old used one, then there should be enough photogs paying about 2000€ for a new one.

It looks like these thougts were right, otherwise Cosina wouldn't have introduced another camera (667W), if the first one have been a failure.

So, what cameras with unique characteristics are on the used market and have (very) high prices? And could be manufactured by Cosina and their production technology?
Two cameras come to mind:
Hasselblad X-Pan and Nikon FM3a.

The Cosina "FM3a" with hybrid shutter, F mount (perfect for the Zeiss ZF lenses) and an improved view finder and better MLU.

These two camera types could be interesting in the mid-term / long-term. Probably not in the short term, because X-Pan and FM3a are still very young cameras. You can still get almost new examples.
Just my speculation......;).

Cheers, Jan
 
For indoors and at night I'm using the wonderful Olympus 12mm f/2 on my E-P1 a lot more than the 12mm f/5.6 Voigtländer on the GXR.
So I think there is a good demand out there for some fast wide M lenses designed specifically for reduced image circles.

12 ... 18mm f/2 M mount lenses for APS-C crop sensors would sell in large volumes to GXR and NEX owners ( not to mention the X200 and Leica CL-D next year ).
Voigtländer have themselves set the precedence with the 25mm f/0.95 Nokton for µFT : just extend that thinking on to M lenses please.
 
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