Nachkebia
Well-known
Toby : amazingly said! my thoughts in words!
telenous
Well-known
The situation with film is material that lends itself for a Catch-22.
Film will continue to be as long as there are people willing to buy it. People will continue buying it as long as it remains reasonably affordable. Film will remain reasonably affordable as long as people buy it.
This is the peculiar logic that has sustained film sales for decades. And, other things being equal, it could continue to work like that for the foreseeable future, esp. seeing as the mass exodus to digital has now been completed (or is near the completion stage).
But it seems that the last step of the conundrum is now threatened by external factors, or so the pessimist argues. Film may be priced out of the "reasonably affordable" bracket, for reasons like the rise in the price of silver (B and W emulsions only need worry), or environmental reasons, so much so, that enough more people abandon it and the market for it falls below the threshold of profitability.
If that were happen today then film would be dead tomorrow. But as it is not happenning today, film's days are not over, not just as yet. How long has it got? Two years? Five years? Ten years? Who knows. I tend to think (and hope) it will be available for many more years, basically because I do not see the price of silver rising as steeply or suddenly as others fear. Anyway that wouldn't affect the state of C41 film although digital has caught up, and probably bettered coloured film. I do not think that environmental reasons will be enough to upset the film business, not when it is a sad fact of life that many people only care about the environment when it threatens to change (or take away) their lives.
Like Krosya said, this is the first time that the enthusiast has affordable access to professional cameras. Obviously there's a reason for that: (a) they are unwanted; and/or (b) they have in-built obsolescence, in a completely different manner than their digital counterparts. But, I do think that the moment of truth for film and our favourite cameras is still science fiction about what may or probably happen and not part of a documentary about an admirable but, regrettably, forgotten practice.
P.S. Toby, I couldn’t agree more. You ‘ve described very eloquently the reasons why I, along with so many others here, enthuse about film so much. I do hope film is here to stay.
Film will continue to be as long as there are people willing to buy it. People will continue buying it as long as it remains reasonably affordable. Film will remain reasonably affordable as long as people buy it.
This is the peculiar logic that has sustained film sales for decades. And, other things being equal, it could continue to work like that for the foreseeable future, esp. seeing as the mass exodus to digital has now been completed (or is near the completion stage).
But it seems that the last step of the conundrum is now threatened by external factors, or so the pessimist argues. Film may be priced out of the "reasonably affordable" bracket, for reasons like the rise in the price of silver (B and W emulsions only need worry), or environmental reasons, so much so, that enough more people abandon it and the market for it falls below the threshold of profitability.
If that were happen today then film would be dead tomorrow. But as it is not happenning today, film's days are not over, not just as yet. How long has it got? Two years? Five years? Ten years? Who knows. I tend to think (and hope) it will be available for many more years, basically because I do not see the price of silver rising as steeply or suddenly as others fear. Anyway that wouldn't affect the state of C41 film although digital has caught up, and probably bettered coloured film. I do not think that environmental reasons will be enough to upset the film business, not when it is a sad fact of life that many people only care about the environment when it threatens to change (or take away) their lives.
Like Krosya said, this is the first time that the enthusiast has affordable access to professional cameras. Obviously there's a reason for that: (a) they are unwanted; and/or (b) they have in-built obsolescence, in a completely different manner than their digital counterparts. But, I do think that the moment of truth for film and our favourite cameras is still science fiction about what may or probably happen and not part of a documentary about an admirable but, regrettably, forgotten practice.
P.S. Toby, I couldn’t agree more. You ‘ve described very eloquently the reasons why I, along with so many others here, enthuse about film so much. I do hope film is here to stay.
Bike Tourist
Well-known
I straddle the fence — film and digital — not too uncomfortable so far.
My pattern of use for film has changed drastically, however. For many years I shot transparencies and was able to buy film at a reasonable cost and have it processed locally the same day. Gradually, the price went up, the selection went down and the local E-6 processor went belly up.
This has led to my "discovery" of negative film. I have it processed quickly and cheaply, then scan it at home. I hadn't had a wet darkroom for thirty years, but the computer and scanned images now make a better and dryer darkroom possible.
Now, if I can just train myself to expose for the shadows, not the highlights!
My pattern of use for film has changed drastically, however. For many years I shot transparencies and was able to buy film at a reasonable cost and have it processed locally the same day. Gradually, the price went up, the selection went down and the local E-6 processor went belly up.
This has led to my "discovery" of negative film. I have it processed quickly and cheaply, then scan it at home. I hadn't had a wet darkroom for thirty years, but the computer and scanned images now make a better and dryer darkroom possible.
Now, if I can just train myself to expose for the shadows, not the highlights!
V
varjag
Guest
Agreeing with what you said, I would just point out that silver is a component in all films currently on sale, color or BW. In C41 and E6 processes silver is replaced by colored dyes during processing, but it still is used to capture the image.telenous said:
Flyfisher Tom
Well-known
If you can buy it, it isn't dead.
Has this helped?
Just get out and shoot rather than worry about these things
Has this helped?
Just get out and shoot rather than worry about these things
bsdunek
Old Guy with a Corgi
tkluck said:
Good list! In the art vein, let me add:
Oil Painting
Watercolor Painting
Charcoal
Wood Carving
Working with clay
Additionally, some of us still cook from scratch (no prepared foods), have a wood burning fireplace, and use wood #2 pencils.
I think film will become like these things.
Nachkebia
Well-known
Which actualy will make it even more adorable
jrong
Too many cameras
How is the world going to cope with the mountain of useless, dead digital cameras whose working lives only span a handful of years?
They can't even be recycled and turned into something really useful... like film!
They can't even be recycled and turned into something really useful... like film!
S
Socke
Guest
bsdunek said:Good list! In the art vein, let me add:
Oil Painting
Watercolor Painting
Charcoal
Wood Carving
Working with clay
Additionally, some of us still cook from scratch (no prepared foods), have a wood burning fireplace, and use wood #2 pencils.
I think film will become like these things.
It's no problem to make all the tools necessary with householditems.
Efke and Foma on the other hand had big problems to get filmbase material to coat when Agfa Photo went out of business.
From this point of view glass plates look more promissing than film.
Finder
Veteran
I read from a good authority that film would be dead in five years. I think it was in a 1995 edition of Pop Photo.
I would like to see some proof the digital photography is "better" for the environment than chemical photography. You need nasty stuff to make ICs and CCDs, and most of my film cameras don't need batteries. Both use paper in chemistry to get prints, so no great difference there. Digital cameras certainly don't have a long shelf life. I've certainly gone through more computers and printers in my life than enlargers and processors. I would imagine the amount of energy spent in a digital world is greater than a chemical one and how is that electricity generated? I guess digital darkrooms don't dirty the house so it is perceived as "cleaner."
I would like to see some proof the digital photography is "better" for the environment than chemical photography. You need nasty stuff to make ICs and CCDs, and most of my film cameras don't need batteries. Both use paper in chemistry to get prints, so no great difference there. Digital cameras certainly don't have a long shelf life. I've certainly gone through more computers and printers in my life than enlargers and processors. I would imagine the amount of energy spent in a digital world is greater than a chemical one and how is that electricity generated? I guess digital darkrooms don't dirty the house so it is perceived as "cleaner."
robert blu
quiet photographer
For what concerns Italy, film is not dead. Not yet. B&W if home developped and printed is not a problem. C-41 still running. E-6 process is not yey getting difficult, but quality decreasing because non optimal use of lab and chemistry (less volume of film process cause aging of chemistry). I'm more worried, as amateur, of difficulties to buy a film scanner (35mm). Even in biggest and more professional shops of big cities they are not available. Having choicen at this moment an hybrid way (film+scanner) I am starting to have doubts. Hope to be wrong!
telenous
Well-known
robert blu said:
Hello Robert,
The situation with labs and film you describe in Italy is very similar to the state of affairs in Greece, as I know it (with Greece being a tiny, tiny market and hence making it even more difficult to find niche products). I wouldn't be too concerned about the unavailability of film scanners. All that shows is that demand exceeds supply, and perhaps some electronic giants will be alerted to the fact and bring more units to the market. I kind of expect (or hope) that Sony will take up the Konica-Minolta line of film scanners, but perhaps that's too much to hope for. For the time being, it seems that if you place an order in one of the many UK based photography specialist shops, you 'll get a decent scanner eventually. (I know because I have contacted a few of them with the Nikon Coolscan V in mind). Despatch to Italy will probably cost a bit more but it will ultimately bring home the goods.
Buona serata,
jan normandale
Film is the other way
bsdunek said:Good list! In the art vein, let me add:
Oil Painting
Watercolor Painting
Charcoal
Wood Carving
Working with clay
Additionally, some of us still cook from scratch (no prepared foods), have a wood burning fireplace, and use wood #2 pencils.
I think film will become like these things.
painting, drawing, using pencils... who are you anyway some dinosaur ? ;- )
just kidding/humour/joke
Oh Two
Established
Although I own a digital SLR, I use it after I've run out of film. However, I find myself using a pocket sized digital point and shoot quite a bit because I carry it with me everywhere and it lives in my car. I've made some very nice street shots just because I had it conveniently with me. I never thought I would see the day that I would revert to a Brownie type of camera.
To stay on topic, for serious work I prefer film because I can control the palette and texture for the situation better, and I find that the newer color negative films are more forgiving than a digital camera if I'm shooting in difficult conditions or with great haste. But as mentioned in the thread, the availability of my favorite films has greatly diminished. I can still buy 400 speed film everywhere, but I like to shoot 100 to 160 speed which has vanished from the shelves.
Therefore, I buy film in bulk and stash it in the freezer. Larger centers will always process color so I'm good to go.
Will younger people be attrated to film? Maybe. When I plug my Les Paul into my big all tube Marshall the young folks are astounded. The rub is that first one must have the tube gear availabe for the comparison. When film is not availble how can one miss what he's never known or can never know?
To stay on topic, for serious work I prefer film because I can control the palette and texture for the situation better, and I find that the newer color negative films are more forgiving than a digital camera if I'm shooting in difficult conditions or with great haste. But as mentioned in the thread, the availability of my favorite films has greatly diminished. I can still buy 400 speed film everywhere, but I like to shoot 100 to 160 speed which has vanished from the shelves.
Therefore, I buy film in bulk and stash it in the freezer. Larger centers will always process color so I'm good to go.
Will younger people be attrated to film? Maybe. When I plug my Les Paul into my big all tube Marshall the young folks are astounded. The rub is that first one must have the tube gear availabe for the comparison. When film is not availble how can one miss what he's never known or can never know?
L
L.P.
Guest
One day i will find an M6 at a reasonable price - film is not dead.
Loïc
Loïc
somecanuckchick
Tundra Gypsy
courtney said:
Digital will be the death of photography, as many of us know it. Moreover, the people who claim to be photographers with their cheap P&S cameras... are more concerned with SD or CF cards... and haven't even seen a rangefinder, much less a roll of film.
Many retailers are no longer stocking film... much the same way some camera manufacturers are no longer making film cameras. There are also many labs which have went under in recent years.
Sad, but true.
No doubt this will force cost of film - and processing - through the roof...
SC
R
Rich Silfver
Guest
Can't we all puiblically go out and declare that FILM IS DEAD and then we can continue to use it secretly? That way we can declare that "Is Film Dead threads are now dead"!!
I hate 'is film dead'-threads.
I so need to buy another hood or something....
I hate 'is film dead'-threads.
I so need to buy another hood or something....
S
Socke
Guest
Finder said:
On the other hand, modern computer and digital camera production fullfill current environment laws, filmproduction doesn't.
I have never seen a "Keep out of reach of children" sticker on an inkcartridge but the icons on a Rodinal bottle don't make me swallow it.
Used fixer has to be disposed of properly here, the silver in it is considered harmfull for a reason. All modern electronics have to be lead free now. if you buy chemistry for filmdevelopment in professional amounts, you have to have somebody trained in hazardous waste management who does the bookkeeping on what you get and what you dispose off. Luckily there are exceptions for small amounts of developer and fixer etc. used in hobby photography, otherwise I couldn't develope my films.
One could argue that these laws were put up to kill film, but I'm not so sure about this.
S
Socke
Guest
somecanuckchick said:Many retailers are no longer stocking film... much the same way some camera manufacturers are no longer making film cameras. There are also many labs which have went under in recent years.
Sad, but true.
No doubt this will force cost of film - and processing - through the roof...
Today I was at a huge household electonics market, they used to have a 300 feet long aisle with film just a year ago, it was some 100 feet long when I bought some Ilford HP5 and Elitechrome 100 and 200 in april. Today it is just 6 feet and they have Elitechrome 100, Sensia 100, Kodak Elite 100 C41 (is that new?) and BW400CN. That's it! No Ilford, no ISO200 and ISO400 films besides BW400CN.
The salesdroid told me that they are phasing out film and just sell what is left, in a couple of month film will be gone from this chain.
darkkavenger
Massimiliano Mortillaro
film isn't dead... I bought at my local retailer 15 rolls of HP5+ in 120 and 10 rolls of Tri-X 400 in 135. My Kiev2A & PSix are packed, I'll fly sunday morning and I'm ready to rock!