Is it harder to hand hold MF folders at low shutter speeds?

[ruben]

I'm a little puzzled ... I have a Super Ikonta A 6x4.5 from the mid thirties and decided to use it yesterday for something totally different to shoot the computer students I'm currently bothering on a regular basis for a six week photographic project. I loaded it with HP5 and in fact used two rolls to do some candid portraits during the day. It's a nice little camera but quite fiddly to use with the left hand shutter release and a viewfinder that's a little like looking through a shower curtain ... but I figured the uncoated 75mm Tessar lens might give me the look I was searching for so it would hopefully be worth the effort ... which it was!

There's not a lot of light in the area I was shooting in so I was down to f 3.5 and 1/25 sec and was a bit dismayed when I scanned the negs this morning to discover some shots (a lot in fact) have motion blur. I can hand hold a 35mm rangefinder down to 1/8 sec no problem and if I get blur it's usually because the subject is moving. I don't know if it's the left hand shutter release, which although unfamiliar is very smooth in it's action, or is MF (particularly an old folder) just harder to achieve decent hand held results with at really low shutter speeds.

It's not a complete disaster because I have plenty of keepers out of the two rolls and the lens definitely gave me what I was looking for ... but I'm curious about other people's opinions and experiences when using these old folders with their quirky handling.

Hi Keith,
For an Iskra proud owner like you, who made that great cat image, you deserve the punishment you got with the Super Ikonta

But now seriously. I do not know the measure of smoothness of the SI shutter. In case it is smooth, and due to the fact that you tried to lower the shutter speed I can assume the shutter IS smooth, then come the following considerations.

a) As you know for sure, there is the rule of 1 to 1, meaning that if you are shooting with a 35mm focal length lens, you will be sure by doing it at a speed of 1/30. Of course I understand that you said you can go quite lower from the rule, but it will be of interest to know which focal length is the lens on your SI.

b) You yourself testify in your post about not feeling comfortable with the griping of the camera. This is a factor for you to take a seat and find a comfortable gripping. With some cameras it takes time.

c) Much more than a softie, you can most of the time provide more stability to a camera by using a bracket, provided you are comfortable with it. The best brackets ever are the ultra light ultra cheapo "Kaiser" trademark bracket, about which you may hear below horror stories of parroquian preacher type. Ignore them.

We mostly do not use brackets but softies to save space in our comfortable rangefinders, but for a folder, which already is not as compact as a rangefinder, you can add a bracket, and also the softie - why not !

From highest stability to lowest, my scale of devices go this way
a) tripod
b) monopod
c) side bracket
d) softie

d) A monopod too is something to be. Again, for a folder, the cheapest plastic low weight monopod will win against the heavy, pro-looking, monopod that will cost you a fortune, will come decapitated, and will be condemned to life sentence to your closet, for being heavy.

e) In one of the languages going on out there, there is a saying running something like "the best rider, still might be thrown down by its horse". So don't desperate, strange accidents take place in photography as in every other field, and any darkroom is the place where most of them will be waiting for you. Just to cheer up your spirit, brother.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[Keith]

Hi Keith,
For an Iskra proud owner like you, who made that great cat image, you deserve the punishment you got with the Super Ikonta

But now seriously. I do not know the measure of smoothness of the SI shutter. In case it is smooth, and due to the fact that you tried to lower the shutter speed I can assume the shutter IS smooth, then come the following considerations.

a) As you now for sure, there is the rule of 1 to 1, meaning that if you are shooting with a 35mm focal length lens, you will be sure by doing it at a speed of 1/30. Of course I understand that you said you can go quite lower from the rule, but it will be of interest to know which focal length is the lens on your SI.

b) You yourself testify in your post about not feeling comfortable with the griping of the camera. This is a factor for you to take a seat and find a comfortable gripping. With some cameras it takes time.

c) Much more than a softie, you can most of the time provide more stability to a camera by using a bracket, provided you are comfortable with it. The best brackets ever are the ultra light ultra cheapo "Kaiser" trademark bracket, about which you may hear below horror stories of parroquian preacher type. Ignore them.

We mostly do not use brackets but softies to save space in our comfortable rangefinders, but for a folder, which already is not as compact as a rangefinder, you can add a bracket, and also the softie - why not !

From highest stability to lowest, my scale of devices go this way
a) tripod
b) monopod
c) side bracket
d) softie

d) A monopod too is something to be. Again, for a folder, the cheapest plastic low weight monopod will win against the heavy, pro-looking, monopod that will cost you a fortune, will come decapitated, and will be condemned to life sentence to your closet, for being heavy.

e) In one of the languages going on out there, there is a saying running something like "the best rider, still might be thrown down by its horse". So don't desperate, strange accidents take place in photography as in every other field, and any darkroom is the place where most of them will be waiting for your. Just to cheer up your spirit, brother.

Cheers,
Ruben

Thanks Ruben ... as always good advice and a great read!

The lens on the folder is a 75mm Tessar so I guess 1/25 sec with a camera that feels a little foreign in one's hands is pushing one's luck a little.

I think for these situations you're right about the monopod ... I've often considered getting one and they are not expensive if you buy what you need rather than what is trendy!

 

[Keith]

It's interesting to contemplate how people managed to get decent consistency with these types of cameras back when they were made and being used regularly. I after all had the luxury of 400 speed film ... 100 ISO would have made it totally impossible without a tripod and rigidly still subjects!

 

[gdmcclintock]

I have the same ZI 6x4m5 camera and use a short cable release. Works great and helps keep the camera steady at very slow speeds.

 

[Ernst Dinkla]

another option that was often used in the old days, not as good as a monopod but it does the trick quite well to some extent, , is to use a length of small chain or cord that is attatched to a thread to screw into the tripod socket. it works in the oposite direction to a monopod, instead of pressure downwards you apply pressure upwards (placing the other end of chain under your foot), tensioning the thinish chain or cord and creating some extra stability. it works quite effectively and is super compact--kinda like a monopod that fits in you pocket!

That's what I use with my MF folders from day one.

http://www.pigment-print.com/Fotografica/Agfa Record II/index.html

Ernst Dinkla

 

[Ernst Dinkla]

The old cable like pneumatic release systems of yesterday should be considered as well. Or a cable release that can be activated by biting on it, keeping two steady hands on the camera.

Ernst Dinkla

 

[Keith]

Incidentally I'd forgotten what beautiful tools these old folders are ... the kids who I was photographing all live by their i-phones, computers etc. They were blown away by the fact that I was using a seventy five year old camera. The one thing I don't like too much about this camera is the viewfinder ... the silvering is on the way out and in poor light it's a nightmare ... rangefinder's still good though!

Damn it's pretty!

Oh yes ... and the other bitch I'd like to have is why the **** can't Ilford put decent numbering markings on the paper backing ... I missed a frame because it was so hard to see in the light I was in!

 

[Micky D]

Going back to that "lens length/shutter speed" thing.
I think that only applies in 135 format, that is to say one would need 1/50 second, not for a 50mm lens, but for any lens giving that same field of view.(in other formats).

 

[FallisPhoto]

1. A camera with a 100mm lens will be twice as hard to hold steady as a camera with a 50mm lens.

2. Polish your linkage if you want it to be smooth.

3. Use a cable release if you want to avoid using the rough linkage.

4. If that still isn't enough, brace the camera.

 

[FallisPhoto]

... and of course a lot of portraits are quite stoic, the further back you go the more stoic the portraits are.

Well, way back, they were using films that took very long exposures and the subjects were held in position with clamps and braces! That is one reason why you don't see a lot of people smiling in old photos -- it hurts to grin that long. It would look more like a rictus than a smile.

 

[Keith]

Ok Chippy ... here's a question for you!

I'm feeling a little folder seduction after picking up the 6x4.5 Ikonta again and experiencing it's particular magic. I've thought about a 6x9 on and off periodically and even considered a Fuji rangefinder (huge and heavy) for a while but don't really want to spend that sort of dough. You sound like you know your MF gear so what would be good for a carry around 6x9 folder with a rangefinder that won't break the bank?

Please don't say that word Moskva ... had one, never used it, it's gone ... I don't miss it!

... and oh yes, with best possible lens for the least amount of money. :angel:

 

[FallisPhoto]

are you speaking from personal experiance


In the early days no one was interested in photography until they heard about the clamps and braces! once people knew that clamps and braces were involved everybody wanted in and photography took off. Kodak cashed in on this knowing it didnt matter how crappy their box cameras were so long as people could use clamps and braces. the long exposures were enjoyed ...

People are returning to film because they hate Nikons Dslr's low light capibilities, shortening the exposures but i dont want to make this another film verses digital debate

I'll have to whip up a few clamps and braces and send them winging your way, Andrew.

P.S.: would you prefer fixed head spikes or adjustable?

 

[Keith]

Thanks for the info Andrew ... much appreciated. The Bessa II seems to be the one that commands reasonably high prices and as you say the Welta is a little thin on the ground.

Having a quick look at Certo's site he seems to ask a lot less for the Welta than the Bessa!

 

[Way]

Thanks for the info Chippy. I have the Bessa RF which needs a rangefinder adjustment. I didn't know you can rangefind this camera with the folder closed.

 

[Way]

Keith, what about a folder with an uncoupled rangefinder? I have an Agfa Record III that I find great and shouldn't be too expensive.

 

[Ernst Dinkla]

Ernst, is that strap (brace) you have home made or a purchased (commercial made) product? I have old chains and straps that came with kits from the 30's but obviously that is relatively modern. Handy colapsible rubber hood you have there as well!

It is a much underestimated, compact, light tool that suits folders having the same qualities
Home made as usual, two tripod screw hole adapters + two tie straps + cyano-acrylate glue locking the screw + the belt sewn by my better half. Use it as a camera strap on my shoulder or around the neck within my coat. I'm sure that I will use it on the digital camera that is on order, with and without IS lenses.

Parts like shown here, the small double thread adapter screwed into one of the aluminium ones.

http://www.morrisphoto.co.uk/ProductDetails~productID~5553~categoryid~149.html


Yes, the collapsible hood, two hours searching on a photo flea market delivered two filters + the hood that fit the Iskra filter thread. Removed the glass of one filter but keep it on the lens so the outer side gave support for more Series filters + solid hood and the internal for the other filter or the collapsible hood. That one stays on the camera while folded.


Ernst Dinkla

www.pigment-print.com

 

[FallisPhoto]

Andrew, you've left out one of the biggest bangs for the buck -- the Agfa Record III, with Solinar. Of course I do have to qualify this and say it is a good choice if you can replace the bellows, get the green gunk out of it and CLA it yourself; if not, then your choices are a lot better.

BTW, this is the type of photo you generally got with the braces and clamps:

Of course sometimes you didn't need clamps:

 

[Keith]

I've read varying opinions of Jurgen (cerot6) here and was browsing his site. He has Weltas listed second hand for a lot less than the equivalent Bessas and I gather quite a few RFFers have bought various cameras from him. A lot of my cameras have come from eBay but to be honest it's a crap shoot and looking back at the so called bargains I've picked up from the big ugly auction site most of them have cost me money somewhere along the line in spite of their advertised ... 'perfectness!'

I think after doing some googling I like the look of the Welta to be honest ... the Bessa II seems a little overpriced! I gather Jurgen's cameras have been CLA'd and have some sort of return option if all is not well with your purchase?

 

[chippy]

I've read varying opinions of Jurgen (cerot6) here and was browsing his site. He has Weltas listed second hand for a lot less than the equivalent Bessas and I gather quite a few RFFers have bought various cameras from him. A lot of my cameras have come from eBay but to be honest it's a crap shoot and looking back at the so called bargains I've picked up from the big ugly auction site most of them have cost me money somewhere along the line in spite of their advertised ... 'perfectness!'

I think after doing some googling I like the look of the Welta to be honest ... the Bessa II seems a little overpriced! I gather Jurgen's cameras have been CLA'd and have some sort of return option if all is not well with your purchase?

well this is a curly one, i am add odds at whether to voice an opinion...i will say that it is always a crap shoot (not an aussie term! lol, we play two up) and statements of 'perfectness' will come from those you would think are beyond reproach....

jurgen does not offer the right of return, afaik, but does suggest that he will repair or replace, by that time you have already spent the money, many folk are happy though.

as for deciding on a Welta Weltur! well you are a wise man . i am not sure myself having become very used to them whether their looks appeal to others with their very retro engineered square angled look, although i do still remember the first time i held and seen the 6x9 weltur..i was very impressed...how could two blokes that learnt their trade from thier Unlce at Merkel, start up a business at the beginning of the first WW and make it a success selling basic to very good quality cameras, and then go on to design and manufacture at the time, some of the most inovative or practicle/best performing 120 camera in the world, the Weltur being one of them. one of their key attributes was no doubt having good relations with all the the makers of camera and lenses. i have pictures of the blokes from Welta riding in cars, sociaising or talking with big name people from other places, no doubt this and their excellent camera designs opened the doors to them having access to the best lenses of the time...even Leica lenses which arnt found on other camera very often

all kidding aside they are great camera, barely a fault can be directed at them, particularly considering their vintage thier performace is second to none.

if i can get them to come up, here is couple of snap shots from a tessar version 6x9 (the Xenar is equally as good, but ever so slightly different). i hardly have any pictures on my computer, but these were because my daughter wanted them for a school project for the old planes that were at an air show not so long ago, thus they are only snap shots; the scans are poor quality and unajusted as i am sure you can see with all the dust , dirt and so forth. but hopefully you can still decern the some of the apparent sharpness and quality you can get. Krosya should chime in with his pics that have been seen before that are colour, quite brilliant exampels that show that the uncoated unit focusing Xenar performes as well as later coated lenses (as does the tessar), without the bleeding that is apparent in front cell lenses or some triplets even of later years. yet the uncoated lens still has its slight signiture

a bland no comtrast sort of day with all the cloud cover-yet they show an ok amount

 

[FallisPhoto]

Those type of pictures of corpses are spooky (are they corpses? or are they just waitin for the pub to open)! they seem common place in American history, or is it that i just havnt noticed them in Aussie and UK history much

Yeah, the photo is of the Dalton gang, after their last shoot-out. In case you couldn't tell, they lost. What I find fascinating is that a lot of famous killers and robbers, while on the run from the law (such as it was), went to photo studios to pose for portraits. Billy the Kid, for instance, posed for that photo while wanted for murder, and that photo appeared on wanted posters all over the place shortly thereafter.