Leica IIIf — Shutter and Reverse Lever Issue

[Jeph]

I recently purchased a Leica IIIf BD from a local camera store and was hoping to get some advice on an issue I’m having.

A little background: I was told the camera had been CLA’d before being put up for sale. The listed price was $380, but the salesman offered it for $300 since it had been sitting in stock since early this year.

After getting home and reading through the manual, I turned the reversing lever from A to R, and then back to A. After that, the shutter stopped firing on the first press. I moved the lever a few times after that, and it only got worse. With the reversing lever pushed all the way against the post in the A position, the shutter won’t fire at all. If I move it slightly upward (around the 3 o’clock position), the shutter will eventually fire—but only after pressing the release several times. I also noticed that the curtains move at the same speed regardless of the shutter speed setting. From what I’ve read, this sounds like a problem with the reverse interlock cam not returning fully when set back to A, which may be causing both the shutter speed and release issues. There seems to be a “sweet spot” where I can position the lever so that the curtains move at the correct speeds, but the release still needs multiple presses to fire.
I was offered a full refund, or a partial refund if I decided to keep the camera. I ultimately planned to return it because I wasn’t sure about the partial refund amount and potential repair costs. The store then offered a $200 refund, selling it to me as a parts camera, so I decided to keep it.

I’m hoping someone here has a better understanding of what’s happening or might know if I’ve done something wrong to cause it.

 

[Jbennett68]

I don’t think it’s anything you did. I’m sure it’s fixable. Probably still worth the $100 if you want to look into getting it fixed.

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

If the fastening screw for the rewind lever is loose it can encourage erratic behaviour like that you've described. I know this because when servicing and testing one of these it's necessary to temporarily reinstall the release lever if the shutter is to be test fired after removal of the top cover and so on. Without the top cover in situ, after cycling the shutter the lever position can sometimes drift a bit by itself at which point, the mechanism can commence behaving oddly in ways not dissimilar to your description. There's a small curved cam under the lever that has to locate in the correct positions depending on whether you are winding or rewinding. If the retaining screw is loose it won't rotate adequately. That you can induce some improved, if not ideal, behaviour from the mechanism by varying the lever angle suggests the cam is not working to spec.

There is also a small cylindrical sleeve that must be fitted beneath the wind release lever where the shaft goes through the top plate of the camera chassis. This centres the shaft and ensures that when the lever is actuated full rotation of the lever is transferred through the shaft. Anyone who is well acquainted with the IIIc–IIIf series would not intentionally omit this sleeve but someone unfamiliar with them might, perhaps, not be aware of its existence particularly, of course, if it was not originally present during disassembly. Stranger things have been known to happen. Takeaway is that you might take a carefully chosen blade screwdriver and see if the lever retaining screw will take up at all. Blade thickness is just as important as width. Do not be afraid to take a stone to an otherwise too-thick blade so that it will seat into the screw slot, fully. A slightly too-thin blade is, by and large, the lesser of two evils compared to one that is too thick. (Within reason, obviously.) The latter is almost guaranteed to burr your screw slots.

Of course, a loose lever being the sole cause of your woes presumes that you have in fact, purchased a IIIf that was, indeed, competently serviced and wants to run to spec with a properly fitted rewind release. I have to say that your general description of the behaviour of the mechanism also aligns fairly nicely with that of a good, clean III series that has sat unused for many years and has not been serviced for decades (or, possibly, at all). If the active shaft (contains the drum and pulleys that time the curtains, the main speed knob sits on top of it) is dirty and needs cleaning and lubrication, and the curtain latch and its shaft bearings are gummed up, these things do nothing to encourage a shutter to respond appropriately to alterations in the selected speed, or to perform reliably and predictably.

Case in point I have a quite clean IIIc here that needs more force than appropriate to wind and then wants to fire both its curtains only at fast speeds (unless pressure on the shutter release is eased at medium speeds at which point the second curtain will start). Its curtains feel soft and are wrinkle free, I feel I might actually legitimately get away without replacing them, although I have fabric on hand and would do this if dictated. Ie my particular "as found" IIIc is exhibiting a lot of the same behaviour as your IIIf, and I have a IIIf black dial, I think, here which will definitely need new curtains that is, if anything, even worse.

I wouldn't be very happy at all if I paid a market price for a properly attended to III series with the issues yours has. On the other hand, they're not making any more of these, there is a finite supply, and many have been hard used with many signs of wear. I'd also be quite content, today, to obtain an externally clean looking IIIf for the princely sum of $100. Whilst clean external condition can never be proof positive of the existence of sound internal components, with minimal or moderate wear, it's invariably a darned sight better prospect than a beat up, dinged and dented much worn example and will, statistically, be a much better bet than the latter. I write this, however from the perspective of someone who (after many years of perseverance with all manner of classic camera mechanisms and literally thousands of hours of research, reading and practicing) possesses the skills to do a decent job of repairing one of these beautiful cameras myself. Perhaps a $100 clean IIIf black dial isn't quite as much of a deal to someone who is not in a position to undertake remedial work themselves and needs a "turn key" camera they can load and use. At the same time: how many cups of decent coffee will $100 buy you in 2025? Send it away to someone like Don Goldberg for attention and you'll have a treasure that will deliver a lifetime of photographic excellence.
Welcome to Rangefinder Forum incidentally.

 

[Duofold RF]

DAG is the best probably cost around $500. YYX has price listed on web, consider replace the curtain if you are planning to use it for another 25-50 years

 

[Jeph]

If the fastening screw for the rewind lever is loose it can encourage erratic behaviour like that you've described. I know this because when servicing and testing one of these it's necessary to temporarily reinstall the release lever if the shutter is to be test fired after removal of the top cover and so on. Without the top cover in situ, after cycling the shutter the lever position can sometimes drift a bit by itself at which point, the mechanism can commence behaving oddly in ways not dissimilar to your description. There's a small curved cam under the lever that has to locate in the correct positions depending on whether you are winding or rewinding. If the retaining screw is loose it won't rotate adequately. That you can induce some improved, if not ideal, behaviour from the mechanism by varying the lever angle suggests the cam is not working to spec.

There is also a small cylindrical sleeve that must be fitted beneath the wind release lever where the shaft goes through the top plate of the camera chassis. This centres the shaft and ensures that when the lever is actuated full rotation of the lever is transferred through the shaft. Anyone who is well acquainted with the IIIc–IIIf series would not intentionally omit this sleeve but someone unfamiliar with them might, perhaps, not be aware of its existence particularly, of course, if it was not originally present during disassembly. Stranger things have been known to happen. Takeaway is that you might take a carefully chosen blade screwdriver and see if the lever retaining screw will take up at all. Blade thickness is just as important as width. Do not be afraid to take a stone to an otherwise too-thick blade so that it will seat into the screw slot, fully. A slightly too-thin blade is, by and large, the lesser of two evils compared to one that is too thick. (Within reason, obviously.) The latter is almost guaranteed to burr your screw slots.

Of course, a loose lever being the sole cause of your woes presumes that you have in fact, purchased a IIIf that was, indeed, competently serviced and wants to run to spec with a properly fitted rewind release. I have to say that your general description of the behaviour of the mechanism also aligns fairly nicely with that of a good, clean III series that has sat unused for many years and has not been serviced for decades (or, possibly, at all). If the active shaft (contains the drum and pulleys that time the curtains, the main speed knob knob sits on top of it) is dirty and needs cleaning and lubrication, and the curtain latch and its shaft bearings are gummed up, these things do nothing to encourage a shutter to respond appropriately to alterations in the selected speed, or to perform reliably and predictably.

Case in point I have a quite clean IIIc here that needs more force than appropriate to wind and then wants to fire both its curtains only at fast speeds (unless pressure on the shutter release is eased at medium speeds at which point the second curtain will start). Its curtains feel soft and are wrinkle free, I feel I might actually legitimately get away without replacing them, although I have fabric on hand and would do this if dictated. Ie my particular "as found" IIIc is exhibiting a lot of the same behaviour as your IIIf, and I have a IIIf black dial, I think, here which will definitely need new curtains that is, if anything, even worse.

I wouldn't be very happy at all if I paid a market price for a properly attended to III series with the issues yours has. On the other hand, they're not making any more of these, there is a finite supply, and many have been hard used with many signs of wear. I'd also be quite content, today, to obtain an externally clean looking IIIf for the princely sum of $100. Whilst clean external condition can never be proof positive of the existence of sound internal components, with minimal or moderate wear, it's invariably a darned sight better prospect than a beat up, dinged and dented much worn example and will, statistically, be a much better bet than the latter. I write this, however from the perspective of someone who (after many years of perseverance with all manner of classic camera mechanisms and literally thousands of hours of research, reading and practicing) possesses the skills to do a decent job of repairing one of these beautiful cameras myself. Perhaps a $100 clean IIIf black dial isn't quite as much of a deal to someone who is not in a position to undertake remedial work themselves and needs a "turn key" camera they can load and use. At the same time: how many cups of decent coffee will $100 buy you in 2025? Send it away to someone like Don Goldberg for attention and you'll have a treasure that will deliver a lifetime of photographic excellence.
Welcome to Rangefinder Forum incidentally.

Thank you so much for the detailed reply! I had read a post about someone dealing with a loose screw on their reversing lever. At the time I tried moving it with my finger nail and it seemed snug. Just now I went through my flat head bits til I found one that fit (2.5) and it even though it wasnt loose I was able to turn it slightly. Unfortunately nothing has changed.
When looking through the bottom of the camera I can see a cylinder rotating as I turn the reversing lever. That movements causes a rectangular piece to move up and down.


I was hoping that this cam was just stuck in the wrong position causing the spring loaded lever to not be engaged. I have seen some videos on disassembly and it doesn't seem too difficult. I just don't want to pull the top off only to find everything in place as it should be and no idea what to do next.
The salesman mentioned that the store sends their cameras to DAG. I planned on reaching out to him before taking anything apart. Everything operates smoothly, no resistance and the curtains look new compared to my Fed.

 

[chuckroast]

I recently purchased a Leica IIIf BD from a local camera store and was hoping to get some advice on an issue I’m having.

A little background: I was told the camera had been CLA’d before being put up for sale. The listed price was $380, but the salesman offered it for $300 since it had been sitting in stock since early this year.

After getting home and reading through the manual, I turned the reversing lever from A to R, and then back to A. After that, the shutter stopped firing on the first press. I moved the lever a few times after that, and it only got worse. With the reversing lever pushed all the way against the post in the A position, the shutter won’t fire at all. If I move it slightly upward (around the 3 o’clock position), the shutter will eventually fire—but only after pressing the release several times. I also noticed that the curtains move at the same speed regardless of the shutter speed setting. From what I’ve read, this sounds like a problem with the reverse interlock cam not returning fully when set back to A, which may be causing both the shutter speed and release issues. There seems to be a “sweet spot” where I can position the lever so that the curtains move at the correct speeds, but the release still needs multiple presses to fire.
I was offered a full refund, or a partial refund if I decided to keep the camera. I ultimately planned to return it because I wasn’t sure about the partial refund amount and potential repair costs. The store then offered a $200 refund, selling it to me as a parts camera, so I decided to keep it.

I’m hoping someone here has a better understanding of what’s happening or might know if I’ve done something wrong to cause it.

View attachment 4880287View attachment 4880288

Unless you're fairly comfortable with the innards of these, I'd send this off to YYE for an expedited CLA. This should be well under the $200 you saved, just be sure to follow his instructions to the letter for expedited handling. Not only should this get fixed but you'll get an overall camera tuneup.

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

Thank you so much for the detailed reply! I had read a post about someone dealing with a loose screw on their reversing lever. At the time I tried moving it with my finger nail and it seemed snug. Just now I went through my flat head bits til I found one that fit (2.5) and it even though it wasnt loose I was able to turn it slightly. Unfortunately nothing has changed.
When looking through the bottom of the camera I can see a cylinder rotating as I turn the reversing lever. That movements causes a rectangular piece to move up and down.
View attachment 4880340
View attachment 4880342
I was hoping that this cam was just stuck in the wrong position causing the spring loaded lever to not be engaged. I have seen some videos on disassembly and it doesn't seem too difficult. I just don't want to pull the top off only to find everything in place as it should be and no idea what to do next.
The salesman mentioned that the store sends their cameras to DAG. I planned on reaching out to him before taking anything apart. Everything operates smoothly, no resistance and the curtains look new compared to my Fed.

Thanks for the extra information. My comments earlier apropos the tendency of an '"as found" screw mount to fire at the same speeds regardless of what is set, reluctance to release both curtains, failure of the second curtain to start until the release button is relaxed—and so on—might have some correlation with some of the behaviour of your camera, but also tend to be accompanied by a wind knob that is harder than usual to rotate, and often (but not always) curtains that are stiff and reluctant to run promptly and rapidly (and occasionally, if they are hard enough, not to want to run much, at all). You might appreciate, then, why I was concerned initially, that perhaps you'd got a camera that hadn't actually been worked on? (None of the problems I have cited are particularly sinister, they're par for the course when you inspect a 75-odd year old camera that might never have been serviced since it was made, in some cases. Nothing is "broken", but, without a good strip down, clean, lube and, if needed, fresh new curtains, one is simply not going to function well enough to give you much in the way of decent exposures).

If your IIIf otherwise feels smooth in every way, and has fresh curtains, then, it is sounding more like an adjustment issue that should be quickly sorted. I could walk you through the procedure for removing the body casing and the top cover to investigate. But, I would instead suggest that your intention to contact Mr Goldberg in the first instance is eminently sensible. If he has indeed recently worked on the camera, he should be given the opportunity to advise you on how to have it sorted, and given his excellent reputation for quality repairs, one might reasonably expect whatever ails the camera now should not be a major issue for him to set right. Whether this might be covered by any sort of warranty from him, is not for me to say, but one thing I am sure of is that like any decent repairer, he would surely prefer to review his work before someone else has intervened.

Interested to hear the outcome and please let us know how you get on.
Cheers,
Brett

 

[rick oleson]

This has the feel of possibly a cleaning issue, particularly with the camera having sat unfired on the shelf for nearly a year before you bought it. If this is the case, the repair might not be expensive unless you send it to someone who insists on a total teardown for any job.

 

[rfaspen]

I like the idea of contacting Don. He really is considered one of the top people worldwide and I bet he would like to know if one of "his" cameras has a problem. Nice guy....but super busy. Cut him a little slack and know that you may need to reach out more than one time. Phone seems better than email.... certain times of day as well. He's in Wisconsin so I think Central Time Zone?

 

[chuckroast]

I like the idea of contacting Don. He really is considered one of the top people worldwide and I bet he would like to know if one of "his" cameras has a problem. Nice guy....but super busy. Cut him a little slack and know that you may need to reach out more than one time. Phone seems better than email.... certain times of day as well. He's in Wisconsin so I think Central Time Zone?

Yep, Central Time outside of Madison WI.

If you can establish that he did the original work within a reasonable recent period of time, he'll make it right. He's done things for me that were technically out of the repair warranty period and I only paid shipping.

Don is a super nice man and absurdly busy, so as @rfaspen says, patience and kindness are in order.