Is Leica really working on a new CCD sensor for the M9?

[ktmrider]

Had my M9 purchased used for a little over a year. I bought it for travel and it survived a thousand miles on a motorcycle in Laos and 90 days of living in my backpack through Europe last fall.

I sent it to Leica, NJ, in early December for a cleaning. It came back six weeks later with a 1 year warranty and a new, unexpected sensor. I really do not have any complaints about how Leica is handling this problem. I thought about the upgrade but do not use the camera enough to justify another $3700.

It will be going with me for a six month motorcycle trip from the US to Tierra del Fuego. If it gets stolen or quits working, well that is what insurance is for and I enjoyed it while I had it.

Come on people, life is too damn short to sweat the small stuff.

 

[jaapv]

The polling is a sampling. A method of prediction. So the 33 is out of a population of 80, not 40,000 (obviously). It is the same way that polls are taken after elections to determine results. A sampling of the population is a predictor of results.

A poll of participants that attracts users with a problem, filled in by those that can be bothered to answer, on a forum not aimed specifically at Leica users, but rangefinder enthusiasts with 80 participants out of 40.000.....🙄

I have a poll that is just as valid statistically:
The failure rate is exactly 50% because my Monochrom had the problem and my M9 not...

 

[Michael Markey]

That said, until Leica shares hard facts stating how many cameras out of what total production have developed sensor corrosion problems, we will not know what the accurate sensor corrosion figures are. The discussion shows a lot of frustration and impatience over how the problem solution has played out so far.

Stephen

...and that is the real problem.

Despite all the interesting diversions over what may constitute a meaningful sample or the suggestion by some that Leica owners have a propensity to whinge more than other users ....the issue refuses to go away.

The fact that they seem unable to close it down is in itself damaging.

They needed to be transparent from the start and they unfortunately failed to be so.

 

[sevo]

The polling is a sampling. A method of prediction. So the 33 is out of a population of 80, not 40,000 (obviously). It is the same way that polls are taken after elections to determine results.

The obvious differences are that 1. you can safely assume that those that bothered to show up for the election actually voted, 2. a randomized number of voters is actively asked by an interviewer to participate in the exit polls (counting refusals as well) and 3. statisticians have compiled correction tables over the course of dozens of polls to correct for the (quite considerable) difference between actual votes and what people claim to have voted on the exit poll (and the party specific participation bias).

 

[jaapv]

...and that is the real problem.

Despite all the interesting diversions over what may constitute a meaningful sample or the suggestion by some that Leica owners have a propensity to whinge more than other users ....the issue refuses to go away.

The fact that they seem unable to close it down is in itself damaging.

They needed to be transparent from the start and they unfortunately failed to be so.

Well, the guaranty of replacements, the offer of upgrade and the quest for a new cover glass is a closure in itself.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Every time a new camera comes out from the big two and there are issues which there have been from time to time you should read that hate on forums that are dedicated to either Canon or Nikon. No different.

Again, my MM is well used and has 30K + and is over two years old no issues. A great tool for the way I see and work. If a problem shows up I will send it in. I have already had several emails to Leica how BTW was very up front and responsive.

 

[Kwesi]

...The discussion shows a lot of frustration and impatience over how the problem solution has played out so far.

Stephen

Huss is the only actual owner expressing dissatisfaction in this thread.
And he isn't even an affected owner.

Nothing wrong with that - just a reality check🙂

 

[Luke_Miller]

Leica USA replaced the sensor in my M9 this past December. Camera was out of my hands just over a month. Good service in my view. My MM sensor also appears to be experiencing corrosion, but much less severe than that of the M9. I will try to wait until sensors with the new cover glass are available before sending it in. I don't think any MM or M9 shooter experiencing sensor corrosion is happy with the situation, but I for one believe Leica is acting responsibly.

It would be hard for me to imagine Leica not working diligently to source replacement sensors that do not have the corrosion issue. Since there are current bodies either still in production or at least in unsold inventory that use the problematic sensor - failure to find a permanent fix would seem to push the issue and bad PR out for a decade or more.

 

[Huss]

Huss is the only actual owner expressing dissatisfaction in this thread.
And he isn't even an affected owner.

Nothing wrong with that - just a reality check🙂

Happened to me twice..

 

[Huss]

Leica USA replaced the sensor in my M9 this past December. Camera was out of my hands just over a month. Good service in my view. My MM sensor also appears to be experiencing corrosion, but much less severe than that of the M9. I will try to wait until sensors with the new cover glass are available before sending it in. I don't think any MM or M9 shooter experiencing sensor corrosion is happy with the situation, but I for one believe Leica is acting responsibly.

It would be hard for me to imagine Leica not working diligently to source replacement sensors that do not have the corrosion issue. Since there are current bodies either still in production or at least in unsold inventory that use the problematic sensor - failure to find a permanent fix would seem to push the issue and bad PR out for a decade or more.

Another 2 out of 2 failure rate..

Glad they serviced yours so quickly.

But again, this thread is not about 'has your failed', but what is the news/likelihood/updates on Leica's permanent fix to this problem. Which is not the same as replacing it with a like sensor.


Anyway, I just picked up an M240 to see how I can work with it. If everything goes well, then my M-E will be sold. My brief usage of the two has shown the CCD sensor has greater highlight recovery ability than the CMOS.

I would have loved to move on from Leica, but the reality is no-one offers what they offer. Stunning lenses that work PERFECTLY on an OVF RF body.
I tried the Sony A7ii, and while this is subjective, I did not enjoy the user experience at all. Nor the fact that - contrary to the claim of some popular blogger$ - my lenses do not work well with the system. But this is not a knock on Sony for that, as why would they care to cater to other mfgs' lenses?

If anyone is privy on knowing what is happening with Leica and the progress of the CCD sensor glass fix, I'd love to know. I have a feeling that something may be announced after the new CEO takes over.

 

[Kwesi]

Another 2 out of 2 failure rate..

Glad they serviced yours so quickly.

But again, this thread is not about 'has your failed', but what is the news/likelihood/updates on Leica's permanent fix to this problem. Which is not the same as replacing it with a like sensor.


Anyway, I just picked up an M240 to see how I can work with it. If everything goes well, then my M-E will be sold. My brief usage of the two has shown the CCD sensor has greater highlight recovery ability than the CMOS.

I would have loved to move on from Leica, but the reality is no-one offers what they offer. Stunning lenses that work PERFECTLY on an OVF RF body.
I tried the Sony A7ii, and while this is subjective, I did not enjoy the user experience at all. Nor the fact that - contrary to the claim of some popular blogger$ - my lenses do not work well with the system. But this is not a knock on Sony for that, as why would they care to cater to other mfgs' lenses?

If anyone is privy on knowing what is happening with Leica and the progress of the CCD sensor glass fix, I'd love to know. I have a feeling that something may be announced after the new CEO takes over.

I stand corrected Huss,
Glad to hear you are going to give the M240 a try. I did the same and haven't looked back.
By the way, have you had a chance to read the article "THE GREAT DEBATE: CCD VS. CMOS" on reddotforum? Its an interesting read in 3 parts

Kwesi

 

[Ben Z]

And wouldn't it be to Leica's advantage to develop a non-corroding cover glass (not a complete CCD, that would be silly) if it is as bad as you suggest instead of replacing them ad infinitum? I should think that would be the first thing a cost-conscious CEO would be pushing for.

Sadly in the corporate world of today there is a different logic in play. CEO's don't look upon it as a lifetime career, merely a stepping stone. Especially when it's of a tiny corp like Leica. A year or two of increasing profits garners them the rep of being a turnaround specialist and leads to bigger and better positions. So their emphasis is on augmenting the short-term bottom line.

R&D labor costs are significantly more per hour than production or service labor. So replacing faulty sensors with identical but as-yet-unblemished ones is cheaper than developing a new cover glass. Especially for a sensor fitted to a discontinued product. If this issue threaatened to stall sales of current product, I believe Leica's response would be different.

 

[sevo]

R&D labor costs are significantly more per hour than production or service labor. So replacing faulty sensors with identical but as-yet-unblemished ones is cheaper than developing a new cover glass. Especially for a sensor fitted to a discontinued product.

Especially when it concerns a discontinued third party sensor for a discontinued product - there are multiple stages of cost increase involved there, it is not anything where the inhouse Leica R&D can do anything short of getting into sensor packaging from scratch.

 

[gunston]

my M9-P in serious fungus and corrosion issue. it is sick.

 

[Emile de Leon]

<--Another happy...digital Leica..owner..<--
I'll bet over the next few years..that defect %..goes way way up..if they don't outright..discontinue the ME etc..and run as fast as they can...from the problems..

 

[icebear]

Acc. to an article in the latest LFI magazine, Leica is NOT working on a new sensor. They are working on a new cover glass for the sensor and most likely also an improved coating. The issue is the cover glass type which blocks infrared better than the M8 sensor cover glass type BUT is prone to corrosion by humidity once the coating gets scratched.

 

[traveler_101]

I am certainly not a survey builder but a survey conducted among admitted rangefinder enthusiasts would hardly qualify as being representative.

Well, it's a hell of a lot more representative than passing around rumours about 1%. And I don't see why or how the fact that the poll is taken among "enthusiasts" affects its outcome. It is safe to say that the same rate of failure hits enthusiasts as any other group of buyers, unless you know something about distribution that i don't.

Whatever, we all make our own decision in the end. In my own opinion it is not a good idea to base those decisions on information gleaned from internet forums or blogs. However, it is obvious that people make decisions to sell and buy things all the time based exactly on this criteria.

It seems to me reading this thread that a lot of people are sitting around with a camera that costs THOUSANDS that isn't being repaired. That is the basis of their feelings . . . and maybe of their decision.

I will be keeping my own M9. I thought it made amazing photos when I first picked it up, and I still do. Leica intends to support it and is doing just that, as they said. I paid more money for this camera than I have paid for any other camera I own so I'm betting it will last until the "whiskers" finally catch up.

Of course, I have been wrong before. 🙂

Well you're the guy who has been fortunate with his camera, talking to others who have been less fortunate. Present company excluded. I am only observing . . .

 

[Pioneer]

Well, it's a hell of a lot more representative than passing around rumours about 1%. And I don't see why or how the fact that the poll is taken among "enthusiasts" affects its outcome. It is safe to say that the same rate of failure hits enthusiasts as any other group of buyers, unless you know something about distribution that i don't.


It seems to me reading this thread that a lot of people are sitting around with a camera that costs THOUSANDS that isn't being repaired. That is the basis of their feelings . . . and maybe of their decision.



Well you're the guy who has been fortunate with his camera, talking to others who have been less fortunate. Present company excluded. I am only observing . . .

Thanks for the observations Traveler. It would appear that you are really the lucky one as you have no horse in this race, good or bad.

 

[willie_901]

Acc. to an article in the latest LFI magazine, Leica is NOT working on a new sensor. They are woking on a new cover glass for the sensor and most likely also an improved coating. The issue is the cover glass type which blocks infrared better than the M8 sensor cover glass type BUT is prone to corrosion by humidity once the coating gets scratched.

This clarification is rather important. A significant amount of confusion when discussing any digital camera system could be avoided if the incomplete descriptor sensor was avoided. A camera's technical IQ is depends on a combination of factors – the individual components of the sensor assembly, the analog ISO amplification engineering and the characteristics of the analog-to-digital converter. This rather different than film where the chemical composition and physical properties (emulsion and emulsion layers) are intertwined.

In the case of the M9 family, it might be possible to remove the cover glass assembly, assure the color-filter array is not damaged, and confirm the CCD assembly and associated electronics operates within specification. Then a redesigned cover-glass/filter could be installed.

Whether or not this process is less expensive than manufacturing a completely new sensor system is unknown. But this sort of replacement would be a fair and complete solution to rectify the defective cover-glass problem.

 

[traveler_101]

Thanks for the observations Traveler. It would appear that you are really the lucky one as you have no horse in this race, good or bad.

Well you are a hell of a nice guy; wish I didn't have to disagree with you on this stuff.