Nigel Meaby
Well-known
I think Jaapv's '0' key is sticky on his keyboard 
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Is there any recent poll that counted the M9 (or digital FF Leica) owners? That would be a better relation to compare against.
we do not have that info. Even if we had a poll for that, it too would be limited to those M9 owners who voted.
Polls are admittedly inaccurate, yet they are still more useful than a guess.
Stephen
Huss
Veteran
According to my sources, that is completely incorrect.
In fact, my sources say that your sources are putting out that mis-information in an attempt to prevent damage to the brand.
Think about it, a 1% failure rate is something that Canon/Nikon/Fuji etc experience. And I have not seen them put out an official statement saying they are working on trying to correct defective sensors.
I honestly think that most owners (note I did not say users) have no idea there is an issue as they bought it as a bauble, and if they use it, use it to post tiny images on their social media sites until they realize they're better off using their smart phones.
But I dunno, is it too much to actually address the topic at hand? It was not about has yours failed, but is a new CCD sensor being developed? We have heard nothing from Leica since the promise of replacing it with the same. And there now has been a management change with the emphasis on financially righting the ship.
seakayaker1
Well-known
The cost for me was $3750 for the Leica M-P 240 type. Current retail for the new MP is $7950.00.
There were different prices depending on model trade in and model requested:
Trade Leica M9 or M-E for Leica M (Typ 240): $3,500
Trade Leica M9 or M-E for Leica M-P (Typ 240): $3,750
Trade Leica M9-P for Leica M (Typ 240): $3,150
Trade Leica M9-P for Leica M-P (Typ 240): $3,450
I received my MP yesterday and quite pleased with the camera and will be out an about this weekend taking some photographs!
Kwesi
Well-known
I think the short answer is no.
The goal has been to find a suitable replacement cover glass.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
And wouldn't it be to Leica's advantage to develop a non-corroding cover glass (not a complete CCD, that would be silly) if it is as bad as you suggest instead of replacing them ad infinitum? I should think that would be the first thing a cost-conscious CEO would be pushing for.
As for the percentages - after the first spate the number reported on LUF has slowed down to a trickle - and we know from the cracked sensor issue that the the vast majority of affected owners will post on LUF.
I can think of a scenario that certain parties -not necessarily outside Leica- have an interest in exaggerating the issue.
Huss
Veteran
How about revealing that 1% source?
That, I mentioned, is a failure rate equal to Nikon/Canon etc.
If that 1% was real, and I was Leica, I'd make sure everyone knew about it as dang, that would be a good failure rate. 99% of cameras are a-ok!
But, because it is bogus, your source (prove me wrong) is "confidential".
On RF's poll, 33 out of 80 respondents have had sensor issues. Sounds just a tad greater than 1%, does it not?
"I can think of a scenario that certain parties -not necessarily outside Leica- have an interest in exaggerating the issue"
I'm curious, what scenario would that be? Or is this another cryptic response to this real issue, like your 1% claim?
Pioneer
Veteran
Lord forbid that anyone visiting these wondrous internet forums (or forae for those who like that form better) should be confused with any facts. It just gets in the way of speculation and good old internet hysteria.
Huss
Veteran
Pioneer
Veteran
So, just out of curiosity, what percent of 40,000 (plus or minus) is 80? Then, to complete that loop, what percent of 40,000 (plus or minus) is 33?
Even if you totally discount 50% of the Leica M9 market as jewelry buyers, that is still hardly a large percentage. So I still fail to see how the 1% reported is absolutely wrong!
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
This real internet issue. So you know for a fact that 33 cameras out of 40.000 have this problem and that adds up to errrr... what percentage?
Pioneer
Veteran
See, that's how you end a comment like that!
I most certainly am not trying to make light of your concerns. You are worried. You have a very expensive camera with equally expensive lenses and don't know where to go.
I am, however, trying to show that internet hystrionics oftentimes create mountains out of molehills.
As for explaining Leica's response if the actual numbers were truly so low, I don't think that is too tough. First, I do not want to make it sound as if I am "in the know." But there is something known as damage control. The issue at hand was quickly spreading to other web news sites.
In fact, if I were Leica, a small boutique camera company very dependent on their customer's perception of them, and I knew that the actual problem was really quite small, I would happily make the offer that was made. Now, on the other hand, if I thought the real problem might involve 25% of my product I would NOT make that offer.
Believe me, the people who lead these companies don't get there by doing stupid things. They do not rely on internet speculation. They want the real numbers. And they have people who can give them those numbers.
For myself, the moment this offer was made I relaxed. I have been there, I have sat in those meetings. I know exactly what happens to those who overstate the results and then cannot deliver.
I have no idea what happened between Blackstone and the recently outed CEO but I would be really surprised if it had anything to do with this situation.
Just my thoughts on the matter although I know that it will do little to stop the speculation.
I truly do wish you well Huss and I hope you do come up with a way to make yourself feel more relaxed about all this.
Huss
Veteran
The polling is a sampling. A method of prediction. So the 33 is out of a population of 80, not 40,000 (obviously). It is the same way that polls are taken after elections to determine results. A sampling of the population is a predictor of results.
'We', cameraquest, on RF did have a real poll, that is ongoing, and that is based on real numbers on a real population. Sure the only way one can be sure if it is accurate is by getting responses from every M9/ME/Monochrom owner out there, but that is not realistic or possible.
So the next best thing is to conduct a poll,which is what was done here.
And Pioneer, again, I appreciate your answer but to understand how this offer was made by Leica, one needs to also understand the current Leica owner. Again, I do not use the word user or photographer. Leica knows that most of these cameras barely see any use. So the defect, if it exists, may never appear to that owner as they do not use it , or know what to look for.
If there is a large population of defective sensors, but no-one knows about them, then the cost to Leica is minimized. Maybe Leica is onto something with their boutique stores and boutique pricing after all! That way , one could argue, working photographers who would notice this issue are kept away!
'We', cameraquest, on RF did have a real poll, that is ongoing, and that is based on real numbers on a real population. Sure the only way one can be sure if it is accurate is by getting responses from every M9/ME/Monochrom owner out there, but that is not realistic or possible.
So the next best thing is to conduct a poll,which is what was done here.
And Pioneer, again, I appreciate your answer but to understand how this offer was made by Leica, one needs to also understand the current Leica owner. Again, I do not use the word user or photographer. Leica knows that most of these cameras barely see any use. So the defect, if it exists, may never appear to that owner as they do not use it , or know what to look for.
If there is a large population of defective sensors, but no-one knows about them, then the cost to Leica is minimized. Maybe Leica is onto something with their boutique stores and boutique pricing after all! That way , one could argue, working photographers who would notice this issue are kept away!
jaapv is just sharing information that was shared with him.
There is no reason to shoot the messenger because you don't like the message. jaapv has proven himself very Leica knowledgeable time and time again. While the poll is certainly too small to be accurate, 1% failure seems too small a failure rate to many as well.
That said, until Leica shares hard facts stating how many cameras out of what total production have developed sensor corrosion problems, we will not know what the accurate sensor corrosion figures are. The discussion shows a lot of frustration and impatience over how the problem solution has played out so far.
Stephen
Pioneer
Veteran
I am certainly not a survey builder but a survey conducted among admitted rangefinder enthusiasts would hardly qualify as being representative.
Whatever, we all make our own decision in the end. In my own opinion it is not a good idea to base those decisions on information gleaned from internet forums or blogs. However, it is obvious that people make decisions to sell and buy things all the time based exactly on this criteria.
I will be keeping my own M9. I thought it made amazing photos when I first picked it up, and I still do. Leica intends to support it and is doing just that, as they said. I paid more money for this camera than I have paid for any other camera I own so I'm betting it will last until the "whiskers" finally catch up.
Of course, I have been wrong before.
Whatever, we all make our own decision in the end. In my own opinion it is not a good idea to base those decisions on information gleaned from internet forums or blogs. However, it is obvious that people make decisions to sell and buy things all the time based exactly on this criteria.
I will be keeping my own M9. I thought it made amazing photos when I first picked it up, and I still do. Leica intends to support it and is doing just that, as they said. I paid more money for this camera than I have paid for any other camera I own so I'm betting it will last until the "whiskers" finally catch up.
Of course, I have been wrong before.
seakayaker1
Well-known
Huss, with the statement "Leica knows that most of these cameras barely see any use" can you provide a source for your information.
I know quite a few M9, MM, and M owners and none of them keep them on the shelf and admire them.
My experience with people who buy Leica Cameras, is that they use them, so I believe your point is exaggerated. I certainly believe the problem with sensors is larger than 1% but do not buy into the belief that Leica Corporation has a hidden agenda and the majority of there consumers do not know or care because they don't use the product.
My suggestion would be that you sell or upgrade and move on.
Life is too short ......
Huss
Veteran
Yeah. I love the results of my M-E, which is why I am so anxious/impatient etc wanting to find out what is going on.
deep breath.
ommmmmmm.
deep breath.
ommmmmmm.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Ahh Leica ... the smoke and mirrors company.
'Smoke' ... because they constantly seem to be the subject of rumours about their survival or otherwise.
'Mirrors' ... well, because rangefinders are based around mirrors and prisms for focusing.
'Smoke' ... because they constantly seem to be the subject of rumours about their survival or otherwise.
'Mirrors' ... well, because rangefinders are based around mirrors and prisms for focusing.
Pioneer
Veteran
Ahh Leica ... the smoke and mirrors company.
'Smoke' ... because they constantly seem to be the subject of rumours about their survival or otherwise.
'Mirrors' ... well, because rangefinders are based around mirrors and prisms for focusing.
That's great!
And most of the smoke is created by Leica owners themselves. None of them can believe that cameras that are this much fun are still being manufactured.
Most of the rest of the market really doesn't care. None of them have used a Kodak sensor in decades.
Edit - Warning! Warning! This post contains agregious internet hyperbole that cannot be supported by any fact, or half-facts, or even my uncle's fax.