Is PayPal No Longer Protecting Buyers?

[Mr_Toad]

Hi, RF Folks,

QUESTION: Is PayPal no longer going to provide transaction protection for Buyers and Sellers in disputed purchases?

In my Hotmail account I received a "Notice of Policy Updates" email from PayPal about policy changes. For example, shown below is a quote found in "PayPal > My Accounts > Notifications > Policy Updates".

(Am I misunderstanding? ...and I wonder if Google Checkout would be a better option.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Release of PayPal.

Section 14.8 is being amended to state:

If you have a dispute with one or more Users, you release PayPal (and our parent, our affiliates, and our and their respective officers, directors, agents, joint ventures, employees and suppliers) from any and all Claims, demands and damages (actual and consequential) of every kind and nature, known and unknown, arising out of or in any way connected with such disputes. In entering into this release you expressly waive any protections (whether statutory or otherwise – e.g., California Civil Code § 1542) that would otherwise limit the coverage of this release to include only those claims which you may know or suspect to exist in your favor at the time of agreeing to this release.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[flip]

Sorry, I have to laugh a bit.

They *never* offered serious protection.
My frmr sister in-law bought a painting on ebay. A totally different painting - I mean visibly different from a long way away arrived. She tried to return. Rebuffed. She pursued paypal redress. They said, in so many words "Well, you received a package, so that's that."

A joke, their assurances.

Oh, that was more than 10 years back.

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Sorry, I have to laugh a bit.

They *never* offered serious protection.
My frmr sister in-law bought a painting on ebay. A totally different painting - I mean visibly different from a long way away arrived. She tried to return. Rebuffed. She pursued paypal redress. They said, in so many words "Well, you received a package, so that's that."

A joke, their assurances.

Oh, that was more than 10 years back.

You're basing what you say on something that happened TEN YEARS AGO???

Things have changed a lot in that time.

 

[david.elliott]

This language does not mean that they are not protecting buyers. It just means you agree to waive rights to go after PayPal itself and its affiliates etc. not uncommon language.

Hi, RF Folks,

QUESTION: Is PayPal no longer going to provide transaction protection for Buyers and Sellers in disputed purchases?

In my Hotmail account I received a "Notice of Policy Updates" email from PayPal about policy changes. For example, shown below is a quote found in "PayPal > My Accounts > Notifications > Policy Updates".

(Am I misunderstanding? ...and I wonder if Google Checkout would be a better option.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Release of PayPal.

Section 14.8 is being amended to state:

If you have a dispute with one or more Users, you release PayPal (and our parent, our affiliates, and our and their respective officers, directors, agents, joint ventures, employees and suppliers) from any and all Claims, demands and damages (actual and consequential) of every kind and nature, known and unknown, arising out of or in any way connected with such disputes. In entering into this release you expressly waive any protections (whether statutory or otherwise – e.g., California Civil Code § 1542) that would otherwise limit the coverage of this release to include only those claims which you may know or suspect to exist in your favor at the time of agreeing to this release.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[flip]

You're basing what you say on something that happened TEN YEARS AGO???

Things have changed a lot in that time.

Sure I am, if by "basing what I say" you mean reporting a real example of their policy failure.
They had the same policy then. In fact, as a younger company with fewer years behind the policy, they had every incentive to try to prove that it meant something.
Maybe things have changed since then. Maybe not. I was taught that looking to past experience to inform future decisions and expectations is a cornerstone of learning.

Your mileage may vary, they say. So, feel free to ignore my comments if it works for you.


As for the art tragedy - well, everyone's been screwed on the bay once. It's a right of passage I can blow off. But, to be fair, imagine you won a Leica MP on Ebay and then received a zorki. And Paypal would not apply their fraud insurance to the situation, because you got a camera. Would that change your feeling? Why? Better yet, after how many years would decide you could again put faith in the policies of such a company? Maybe 10 years is the magic forgiveness number, but I'm inclined to wait until I hear some news in the positive column before I put my trust there again.

 

[jpa66]

Actually, I believe ( but am not 100% certain ) that the US courts have ruled that by placing a clause like that in their user agreement contracts, it is sufficient to prevent any legal class action suit. Anyone is given the chance to opt out, which naturally is extremely difficult. Many companies have begun inserting these clauses in their "updated" contracts.

Opting out is made very difficult ( for example, you have to write and sign a letter, with just the right language, and mail it to paypal ). I have read instances of people getting their "opt out" notices returned, as they were not deemed "accurate" enough. I'm opting out of this, as well as changes to ebay's policies ( which are the same ).

 

[splitimageview]

Yes, the clause as written has nothing to do with buyer protection.

imagine you won a Leica MP on Ebay and then received a zorki. And Paypal would not apply their fraud insurance to the situation, because you got a camera.

Between eBay and PayPal their ‘not as described’ policy would mean you’d return the zorki and get your money back. I’ve used this service more than once - although not regarding MPs and zorkis. 🙂

 

[kdemas]

Frankly eBay is tilted way too far towards protecting buyers. It's sellers that really need to beware by and large. I rarely sell there for that reason at this point.

 

[tbarker13]

Frankly eBay is tilted way too far towards protecting buyers. It's sellers that really need to beware by and large. I rarely sell there for that reason at this point.

That has been my experience. You really need to protect yourself as a seller with ebay/paypal. The biggest mistake people make with those services is not using signature confirmation on items over $250 in value. If you don't use signature confirmation and the buyer says they didn't get the package - you'll be returning their money.
Delivery confirmation (without a signature) or signatures on a USPS insurance form won't protect you. This was a $300 lesson for me a couple years back.

 

[david.elliott]

That has been my experience. You really need to protect yourself as a seller with ebay/paypal. The biggest mistake people make with those services is not using signature confirmation on items over $250 in value. If you don't use signature confirmation and the buyer says they didn't get the package - you'll be returning their money.
Delivery confirmation (without a signature) or signatures on a USPS insurance form won't protect you. This was a $300 lesson for me a couple years back.

Sometimes USPS lets one down despite taking all the proper measures. I sold some very expensive gear (to me anyway -- $1700 transaction) on another forum. I did signature confirmation, restricted delivery fully insured. USPS still had somebody else sign for it. So much for restricted delivery. They let some person at the buyer's work place sign even though I'd put the buyer's name when I filled out the restricted delivery form.

Another time, USPS just never scanned in the package for tracking ($600 item). The item arrived safe and sound, thankfully. But, there was no tracking information at any point and USPS was never able to confirm that the item was delivered. No signature was available as a result -- despite using signature confirmation and despite the buyer actually signing for the item. Now, I always make sure they scan the package while I am at the register.

 

[enasniearth]

PayPal is trying to limit liability , as far as class action suits .
I hit the button to opt out and it took me to a page on closeing
My Paypal account

If you purchase an item as a buyer you are totally protected .
If you look at reasons listed as a return "changed my mind "
Is listed on top as valid reason .
Also if you do not leave feedback PayPal generates an email
Asking if you are happy , and offering to go after the seller
No matter what the auction listing or return policy states .


The new banner on eBay states "there is no eBay without you "
I was told by PayPal that the seller can always relist the item
For sale , so the buyer is most important . Without buyers there are
No sales .
Add that to the fact that sellers can not leave negative feedback
About buyers and well , I think you get the point here .

The chance of a seller winning a dispute is not great .

 

[ColSebastianMoran]

Release of PayPal.

Section 14.8 is being amended to state:

If you have a dispute with one or more Users, you release PayPal (and our parent, our affiliates, and our and their respective officers, directors, agents, joint ventures, employees and suppliers) from any and all Claims, demands and damages (actual and consequential) of every kind and nature, known and unknown, arising out of or in any way connected with such disputes. In entering into this release you expressly waive any protections (whether statutory or otherwise – e.g., California Civil Code § 1542) that would otherwise limit the coverage of this release to include only those claims which you may know or suspect to exist in your favor at the time of agreeing to this release.

This policy change is about PayPal protecting PayPal from buyers and sellers.

My sense is that eBay and PayPal have shifted to be quite protective of buyers and take the buyer's side over sellers. This has helped me as a buyer (for example, they forced an overseas seller to refund).

 

[one90guy]

I have just about stopped selling on ebay. As already said the buyer has the vantage over any dispute.

 

[Messsucherkamera]

PayPal is trying to limit liability , as far as class action suits .
I hit the button to opt out and it took me to a page on closeing
My Paypal account

If you purchase an item as a buyer you are totally protected .
If you look at reasons listed as a return "changed my mind "
Is listed on top as valid reason .
Also if you do not leave feedback PayPal generates an email
Asking if you are happy , and offering to go after the seller
No matter what the auction listing or return policy states .


The new banner on eBay states "there is no eBay without you "
I was told by PayPal that the seller can always relist the item
For sale , so the buyer is most important. Without buyers there are
No sales .

Add that to the fact that sellers can not leave negative feedback
About buyers and well , I think you get the point here .

The chance of a seller winning a dispute is not great .

It appears that the august gents who run ebay and paypal have overlooked the fact that without SELLERS there are also no sales.

The phrase "well, duh" comes to mind...

 

[Tadeyev]

In my experience, (and I am old enough to have experience the whole gamut) there is no real redress with any of these kinds of fake protection schemes, especially PayPal. They are only there to give you a false sense of security and to make you feel you are getting something in return for all the fees you pay. In fact insurance companies for the most part are just as bad with these issues, as well as the postal service insurance.

Have any of you here ever tried to get a claim back on a lost package?
Filled in a dozen forms, waited 6 months and then received back 50% of the value? If you did (like me) then you know what I am saying here.

There is ONE EXCEPETION to this, and that is the credit card companies.
In 2 cases in which I paid with a credit card, (NOT via the Paypal card system), I was well protected and MasterCard, via my bank, stepped right in and quickly dealt with the issue.

PayPal works very well for small amounts and run of the mill bits and pieces up to a few hundred dollars.

Above that, they are not to be trusted, and the Internet is full of horror stories about them. They are also notoriously unreachable if anything goes wrong.

I am afraid all you can do is keep your eyes peeled, and NEVER count on any kind of real protection or help from any of these organisations.

 

[Ron (Netherlands)]

As a buyer on Ebay I can only tell of a very recent positive experience. I bought memory medules for the imac, total of 32Gb. Before buying the modules I asked the seller if they were new/unused and if they were compatible with the latest 27" imac which he confirmed. Well they didn't, not one possible configuration made the imac start up. After trying to settle this with the seller, who did respond only once saying he wouldn't refund the money, I opened a dispute with paypal and after about a month they settled the claim im my favor. Never heard again from the seller - who claimed to have and still has a big webshop on computer stuff in Ebay.

 

[kuzano]

Protection...as in condoms... What?????

Protection...as in condoms... What?????

Been using eBay/Paypal for years. Current account has 438 feedbacks at 100% positive. Transactions up to $1500.

I have NEVER approached the organization (They are one as I see them) with ANY belief or reliance on protection for either buyer or seller.

Anything one chooses to believe about this twin entity should not be considered without a healthy amount of research on this web site:

www.paypalsucks.com

That said, I use them both, have made some great deals, and have never lost an item or any money, that I couldn't take resposibility for.

The feedback system is an incredible tool to protect YOURSELF, if used wisely.

But ...... Protection for buyers and sellers.... fantasy world stuff!!!

 

[enasniearth]

I only had one really bad experience as a seller .
The buyer claimed the item did not meet the description , if you had read his complaint with PayPal I should have thrown the lens in the trash as it was worthless junk . I relisted it and surprise the next buyer was very happy .

I guess I would not have minded it however I had to eat the shipping on the first sale , and I had to file electronic paperwork and wait to have my sellers fees refunded from eBay .

The garage sale mentality of the early eBay is gone now ,
It is now a home shopping network with complete satisfaction guaranteed for the buyer with no hassle money back including the shipping if you are unhappy in the least .

If you are going to sell there , you have to accept that


The downside of the seller guarantee is that I see less items of interest listed
There .

 

[kevels]

When someone sent me something broken on eBay with a no return policy, I contacted PayPal and they put a hold on the sellers account until he gave me my money back. You just gotta keep fighting until you get what's right. Don't take no for an answer if you get dupped on the bay.