Is Piezography worth the effort and what are the pitfalls?

[Bob Michaels]

Bob,
Thanks for the helpful advice. I'm really on the fence (see John's post above). I won't be loading any ink until the fall. If I load and use the OEM inks there could be a later cost if I ever make the jump to Peizography. ...................

Cal: Allow me to encourage you to stop analyzing and start printing. Printing is a skill just like photography where a skilled user with mediocre equipment will deliver far better results than a mediocre user with the best of equipment. It is a bit like someone who does not photograph because they are researching the perfect lens, being concerned they will only reach 98% of perfection when they believe 99% could be possible.

Your Jon Cone print will be much more indicative of your Photoshop adjustment skills than his inks. Digital printing is an art just like the wet darkroom.

Ten years ago I frequently used to participate in the ContaxG website print exchanges. 20 people would send 20 identical prints to the organizer who would sort and send everyone back 20 different prints. So I have seen a lot of digital prints. I saw some real junk come from expensive setups and some incredible prints come from printers that the public said were no good. It was all the printer's skill.

 

[SausalitoDog]

Sorry Gary, I have no experience with the newer 13in Epsons, such as the R3000. Try googling, but you will no doubt find an anomalously high ratio of complainers to happy campers...

Considering the amount of cost and deep frustration I suffered with older Epsons (plus the 13in HP), the 3880 has been one of the best photo investments I have made.

Kirk

Kirk-

I have a 4880 and a 3000... They are equal in quality in my opinion and the 3000 is wifi ready...carts are about 3x as large as the 2880 carts and less than half the size of the 3880 carts.

Of course the 3880 prints a bit faster and larger 🙂

 

[mdarnton]

Is the canon 1200, have the heads as part of the cartridge like the older design or it now more like the Epsom where the head is essentially non-removable?

Gary

Pro-100, sorry. Yes, it still has the carrier that pops out as a unit, but the jets are in the carts, not in the printer. So every cart is a new set of jets. But the inks are dye inks, and a lot less likely to clog, anyway.

On the Epson topic, one thing I found that would clean out Epson jets was to put a child-size ear syringe filled with windex on the cartridge nipple overnight (it was a perfect fit). The long soak followed by forcing Windex through with the syringe would loosen just about anything.

 

[Keith]

I suspect this has more to do with rendering than with the camera. I've seen some superb B&W photos out of the D700. (I've been looking at them because the D700 seems to be falling into the $1100-1300 price bracket and I've accumulated a nice little batch of Nikkor lenses lately...)

G

I think most of the problem is I've never really liked the camera enough to spend sufficient time developing a monochrome workflow that gave me an end product I liked. I've no doubt you are right and the results are there for the asking ... I just can't be bothered asking! 😀

 

[Godfrey]

I think most of the problem is I've never really liked the camera enough to spend sufficient time developing a monochrome workflow that gave me an end product I liked. I've no doubt you are right and the results are there for the asking ... I just can't be bothered asking! 😀

Hmm. Well, once I have the image files from a camera, whether I like the camera or not is no longer relevant. I process the images ... 🙂

G

 

[Calzone]

Cal: Allow me to encourage you to stop analyzing and start printing. Printing is a skill just like photography where a skilled user with mediocre equipment will deliver far better results than a mediocre user with the best of equipment. It is a bit like someone who does not photograph because they are researching the perfect lens, being concerned they will only reach 98% of perfection when they believe 99% could be possible.

Your Jon Cone print will be much more indicative of your Photoshop adjustment skills than his inks. Digital printing is an art just like the wet darkroom.

Ten years ago I frequently used to participate in the ContaxG website print exchanges. 20 people would send 20 identical prints to the organizer who would sort and send everyone back 20 different prints. So I have seen a lot of digital prints. I saw some real junk come from expensive setups and some incredible prints come from printers that the public said were no good. It was all the printer's skill.

Bob,

Back in art school in the seventies I was a pretty skilled printer. I'm very aware of the discipline and commitment needed to elevate any enterprise into art.

Louis Armstrong took two years of his life and dedicated a concentrated effort into trying to become a great player. I took five years to make and collect images concentrating on just image capture, shooting and development of film. Over this time period I certainly have evolved.

Over the past five years it seems I have aggitated and annoyed people with my ways. Later this year I will be editing and concentrating on printing. Please understand that I have a lot of discipline and know that through the concentrated effort that lays ahead I am certain that I will evolve into a good digital printer.

Cal

 

[Bob Michaels]

Cal: If I tweaked a nerve, sorry as that was not my intention. Understanding wet darkroom printing does give you a real advantage. At least I though it did for me.

We approach things differently. You are a disciplined methodical researcher, nothing wrong with that. I am one of those who can only think for a brief period then has to give it a try. Oddly, my formal education and day job was totally analytical. It appears my photography is a kickback to do something differently.

Strangely, I remember the first digital print I made some 12 years ago. It was using Jon Cone Piezograph inks. After many hours of unboxing the printer, installing it, testing it, installing the piezo software, testing it, installing the piezo inks, testing them, clearing clogs, retesting, I could not be bothered with reading more instructions and began making prints. Now they were not very good but I had exhausted my patience.

Bob,

Back in art school in the seventies I was a pretty skilled printer. I'm very aware of the discipline and commitment needed to elevate any enterprise into art.

Louis Armstrong took two years of his life and dedicated a concentrated effort into trying to become a great player. I took five years to make and collect images concentrating on just image capture, shooting and development of film. Over this time period I certainly have evolved.

Over the past five years it seems I have aggitated and annoyed people with my ways. Later this year I will be editing and concentrating on printing. Please understand that I have a lot of discipline and know that through the concentrated effort that lays ahead I am certain that I will evolve into a good digital printer.

Cal

 

[jsrockit]

Understanding wet darkroom printing does give you a real advantage. At least I though it did for me.

At the very least it gives you something to strive towards (if you were happy with your darkroom output). To me my wet darkroom experience in color and B&W has helped me in digital. It's helped me with color balance and color temp in color. It's helped me understand the many settings in my programs vs. wet darkroom counterparts.

 

[Calzone]

Cal: If I tweaked a nerve, sorry as that was not my intention. Understanding wet darkroom printing does give you a real advantage. At least I though it did for me.

We approach things differently. You are a disciplined methodical researcher, nothing wrong with that. I am one of those who can only think for a brief period then has to give it a try. Oddly, my formal education and day job was totally analytical. It appears my photography is a kickback to do something differently.

Strangely, I remember the first digital print I made some 12 years ago. It was using Jon Cone Piezograph inks. After many hours of unboxing the printer, installing it, testing it, installing the piezo software, testing it, installing the piezo inks, testing them, clearing clogs, retesting, I could not be bothered with reading more instructions and began making prints. Now they were not very good but I had exhausted my patience.

Bob,

I look upon you as a wise sage. I have learned a lot from you. You did not tweak any nerves here, but I also hope that I'm not coming off as being defensive. Your advice is always well taken.

The negative comments in this thread cannot be disregarded, but I also know that time has passed and some of those difficulties of the past may no longer be true. As I read through this thread early adopters suffered disappointments. I feel some evolution has advanced and we are now at a point where technology in printers has gotten to the point where digital negatives for making wet printing with printers is possible instead of with imagesetters. An example is although Epson still does not have removable/replacable printing heads like other manufacturers, Epson has improved their inks to help avoid clogging. Although Epson's are more prone to clog over other brands, certainly there have been improvements in inksets that help mitigate this propensity.

A group of us in New York are evaluating printing options: Steve is using a printing house that makes digital silver prints at remarkably low prices; Klaus is looking into another printing house; but I'm thinking for me Piezography might be the way to go.

A while back I took some of your advice and stuck with learning to use only one developer (Diafine) with only two films (Arcos and Tri-X). I needed to stop pouring solvent developer down the drain because I was shooting about 30 rolls (135 and 120) a month, and mixing 10 liters of developer every month made no sense. I decided to figure out how to make Diafine work for me. The end results evolved and I learned a lot, but also know that Diafine is not too popular on this forum, and I learned more about Diafine from large format shooters. Mostly I learned on my own through struggle. I'm very proud of my negatives and the results I made.

Anyways in my life, a life filled with struggle, I need big challenges to feel alive. And for this reason it does seem like I'm leaning toward Piezography. I haven't figured out yet how I'm going to make Piezography work for me yet, and I'm inspired by possibilities. When I decided to become an artist, I knew that I should get use to a life of struggle, and now I need constant challenges to make me feel alive.

Your postings on digital archiving was most helpful. It focused me on the limited quantity of images worth saving/keeping in storage and accepting the eventual demise of stored files. Your comment on an archival print properly stored as being the only thing permanent rang my bell.

Many thanks.

Cal

 

[rbrooks]

May I suggest that you read through Paul Roark's web page?
http://www.paulroark.com/bw-info/
I live in Europe and don't want to pay the customs duty for Cone's ink. So I get a version of Paul's Eboni 6 inks as solf by Farbenwerk in Germany.

I use these in a relatively cheap Epson 1500w (1430 for those in the States).
I've printed around 100 prints so far and I like the look. I can't imagine how Cone's ink would look materially different.

Yes, I've had clean the print heads more than I should have to normally. But I wonder how much of that has to do with how I clumsily filled the cartridges and got some air bubbles in there. At any rate the ink is cheap enough.

And the quality is top notch. Much better and quicker than the darkroom work I did 10 years ago on a focomat V35 with the Heiland Splitgrade computer.

I suggest sticking with something like Photo Rag and getting into a flow. For me in LR4 it's to bump the exposure 1/3rd to 2/3rd, crank the contrast up to around 50 and clarity to 20-40. The highlights and shadows are then adjusted to bring everything down from a high dynamic range down to what a matt paper can show (+/-6 zones).
Basically it was an eye opener to get into the workflow. Now I can see my old inkjet color prints also needed more exposure, contrast and clarity -- but not as much as B&W.

At any rate, for the price, how can you beat a Epson 1500w and carbon pigment?

 

[Calzone]

At the very least it gives you something to strive towards (if you were happy with your darkroom output). To me my wet darkroom experience in color and B&W has helped me in digital. It's helped me with color balance and color temp in color. It's helped me understand the many settings in my programs vs. wet darkroom counterparts.

John,

I'm on a very-very steep learning curve regardless. When Christian downloaded LR5 onto my Mac Book Pro I think he might have been surprise by my depth of understanding.

Also after reading a book about making digital negatives kinda opened up a lot of possibilities. Hmmm digital silver contact prints.

Cal

 

[Piezography Goddess]

I would like to step in and clarify that Piezography has significantly improved over it's life, and has gone thru three different ink sets and systems over the past +/- 12 years from the original Piezography BW inks for the 1160/860, 3000, 1200, 1280, etc... (which did have issues such as flow, clogging and "greenies"- though were quickly addressed), then moving onto the PiezoTone quad system, and most recently with the current Piezography K7 inks that are used with Roy Harrington's QuadTone RIP or Ergosoft Studio Print RIP. In the early days of Piezography, there were several people working full time to develop and support the system, after significant improvements in the inks and printing system over the years, there is now only one support person spending just a few hours a day because the inks and printing system work so well, that very little support is now needed. That in it's self clearly shows the incredible quality, and great improvement in the Piezography system over the years.

The current Piezography K7 and new Piezography 2 system has been developed so now the FULL range of ink tones are both matte and glossy compatible!!

I feel a person's experience is always improved with a clear understanding and complete information regarding whatever it is they're working on. Pigment inks are excellent for long lasting prints, but require proper use and maintenance to work best- this is true with ALL pigment inks. Regular use of the printer, agitation of the ink carts (to keep pigment in suspension, as all pigment inks settle over time), maintenance of the printer, and proper storage techniques are all important for getting the best quality output, as well as the longest life from your printer.

I am available to clarify anything you may have questions about regarding Piezography, or general questions regarding inks, printer maintenance, etc... Feel free to ask here on this thread, or send me a private message.

 

[Keith]

I would like to step in and clarify that Piezography has significantly improved over it's life, and has gone thru three different ink sets and systems over the past +/- 12 years from the original Piezography BW inks for the 1160/860, 3000, 1200, 1280, etc... (which did have issues such as flow, clogging and "greenies"- though were quickly addressed), then moving onto the PiezoTone quad system, and most recently with the current Piezography K7 inks that are used with Roy Harrington's QuadTone RIP or Ergosoft Studio Print RIP. In the early days of Piezography, there were several people working full time to develop and support the system, after significant improvements in the inks and printing system over the years, there is now only one support person spending just a few hours a day because the inks and printing system work so well, that very little support is now needed. That in it's self clearly shows the incredible quality, and great improvement in the Piezography system over the years.

The current Piezography K7 and new Piezography 2 system has been developed so now the FULL range of ink tones are both matte and glossy compatible!!

I feel a person's experience is always improved with a clear understanding and complete information regarding whatever it is they're working on. Pigment inks are excellent for long lasting prints, but require proper use and maintenance to work best- this is true with ALL pigment inks. Regular use of the printer, agitation of the ink carts (to keep pigment in suspension, as all pigment inks settle over time), maintenance of the printer, and proper storage techniques are all important for getting the best quality output, as well as the longest life from your printer.

I am available to clarify anything you may have questions about regarding Piezography, or general questions regarding inks, printer maintenance, etc... Feel free to ask here on this thread, or send me a private message.

Wow ... thanks very much for chipping in on this thread Dana. 🙂

 

[Piezography Goddess]

You are very welcome- I hope my input is helpful 🙂

 

[Calzone]

I am returning a 13x19 inch portfolio to Piezography later today. Even though I presented an extended loan due to vacation, Cathy sent me the portfolio early so I would be able to share it and bring it to the NYC Meet-Up.

The image was by Lewis W. Hines of a young boy miner in West Virginia, but on Canson Rag Photograpghique (matte) or Jon Cone Type 5 paper (Barata) with various inksets. Jon's skill as a master printer is very evident and the prints are stunning.

First off I saw fine detail and enhanced resolution that is the result of less or no dithering, but I found the effect of toning overall too powerful for my work. I can see how it could work with some of my images but not all. My overall favorite was the "regular" Neutral K7 inkset in matte on Canson Rag. Basically any coolness or warmth is the product of the paper used in printing and not from the ink.

I can see how the heavier toning could be used say if I wanted a real retro look to say shots of Savannah's historic district. In a way the Piezography prints looked more like fine art etchings, more like prints and perhaps not like photographs.

For me there is nothing like a wet print, and I was deeply impressed with the 13x19 inch digital negative that Cathy included. WOW. Imagine being able to manipulate digitally and contact wet print from a digital negative. A world without any compromise.

I once was a good analog printer back in art school in the 70's, but making a limited edition of say 25 prints in a wet darkroom that all are exactly the same is beyond my best day. I can see how this would offer every advantage, no compromise, with the only disadvantage as being cost.

At this point I'm thinking that since the matte K7 inkset only requires the changing of only 2 ink carts to go from matte to digital negative printing with my Epson 3880 that I have the flexibility to go both ways.

Also know that I own a Monochrom and intend on sending Jon a file now that I know which paper and ink combo I like. I'll have Jon do the post processing and make me a proof before getting a 20x30 inch print made up. I already have an image in mind that will look stunning.

I recommend seeing the portfolio and letting the prints and digital negative speak to you. This requires a deposit of $250.00 which is refunded upon return of the portfolio. Basically the cost is shipping a 7 pound package Fed Ex round trip.

Cal

 

[icebear]

Hi Cal,
it was a great opportunity to see the portfolio during our meeting last Sunday. Thanks a lot for getting it in time and presenting it.
Amazing quality but my strong preference is not to tone any print. Just pure black and pure white, not any kind of brown.
It would be interesting to see a Piezo print on the Canson Platine Photo Rag, a pure white but archival without any optical brighteners.
I obviously have a lot to learn to optimize my files for printing but for the first trial, I pretty much like what I got printed on that Epson 9900.
I will check what size they can reasonably do from a full frame MM file. 13x19 is nice for a portfolio but on the wall it needs to be bigger.

 

[Calzone]

I will check what size they can reasonably do from a full frame MM file. 13x19 is nice for a portfolio but on the wall it needs to be bigger.

I liked your results a lot. I think you are right about wall sized. I really want to see how a Monochrom holds up to medium format. This thread is all about going the extra expense and steps to get that resolution, tone and detail.

From what I see the Monochrom is a game changer for B&W shooters. By using filters I'm getting that mid-tone richness. By making a digital negative and contact printing a wet print I get the absolute best of both worlds with no compromise. Nothing like a wet print, except a wet print from a digital camera.

Cal

 

[Piezography Goddess]

Thanks for the review Cal!

We have at least four photographers using wet process on a new Piezography system that can do digital negative and K6 in the same printer without changing cartridges. David Chow and Sandy King are both using this new system to proof their platinum and palladium prints made from the digital negatives. Others are doing silver prints with them and still able to make Piezography prints at the same time. If this reply violates my ability to post on this forum, I will have to bid you all farewell! I'm not allowed to refer anyone to our products - but at the same time I wanted you to know that Piezography is always evolving and information about it is sometimes best from the source!

I look forward to working with you more, and would be glad to help you set up your 3880 to print both K6 matte and digital negatives for the best of both worlds without having to change inks in your printer.

 

[Piezography Goddess]

Klaus~ If you send us an image file, we can print it on Canson Platine Fibre Rag paper with whichever (or any) Piezography ink set you wish to see. Paper can make a huge difference, and is an important variable. I like Canson Baryta Photgraphique a lot as well.

 

[jsrockit]

Cal, you are flip flopping! 😉