Is Piezography worth the effort and what are the pitfalls?

[KEH]

Sorry Gary, I have no experience with the newer 13in Epsons, such as the R3000. Try googling, but you will no doubt find an anomalously high ratio of complainers to happy campers...

Considering the amount of cost and deep frustration I suffered with older Epsons (plus the 13in HP), the 3880 has been one of the best photo investments I have made.

Kirk

Is the r3000 considered one of the older 13 inch printers?

Gary

 

[GaryLH]

Sorry Gary, I have no experience with the newer 13in Epsons, such as the R3000. Try googling, but you will no doubt find an anomalously high ratio of complainers to happy campers...

Considering the amount of cost and deep frustration I suffered with older Epsons (plus the 13in HP), the 3880 has been one of the best photo investments I have made.

Kirk

Thanks. Yeah. I know how that goes happy camper to complainers. I have had three dead Epson stylist pros due to head problems. Can't quite remember the first one, but I think it maybe something like 1280, then the 2200 and lastly the r800. But I have also had an expensive canon give up the ghost as well... Overall, I have always loved the results from the epsons the best.

Gary

 

[Calzone]

Sorry Gary, I have no experience with the newer 13in Epsons, such as the R3000. Try googling, but you will no doubt find an anomalously high ratio of complainers to happy campers...

Considering the amount of cost and deep frustration I suffered with older Epsons (plus the 13in HP), the 3880 has been one of the best photo investments I have made.

Kirk

Gary,

I also recommend the Epson 3880. Take advantage of a $250.00 rebate offer like I did. This is the smallest Epson "PRO" printer. The multiple paper feeds and paper handling are more advanced.

A word of warning: the printer is kinda big and heavy. I learned the hard way by taking one on the subway rather than take a cab. By the time I got home both of my lanky arms were kinda broken. LOL.

The Epson 3880 is a 17 inch wide printer, and like I said before the it might be the size of your printing that will make Piezography standout, meaning if you intend on printing big then make the jump.

Cal

 

[Calzone]

Cal, I would listen to some people here before going this route. I've been saying it since day 1. Try the regular inks first and then go elsewhere if you aren't satisfied.

John,

The OEM inkset for my 3880 costs $419.00 to replace. This is almost half of what I paid for a factory new printer after rebate. It gets more complicated because there are issues of contamination and flushing which add costs if the OEM inks are used. Piezoflush is not inexpensive.

Also because I'm a lazy slacker and an old guy that kinda has a full hard drive there's good reason not to clutter my already confused brain with a learning curve and more information that I will no longer need or outgrow. For me I'm looking into spending my money once and being happy. I'm sorry you disagree.

In the balance it is not really clear economically if I should use the OEM inks. New empty carts that don't have any contamination issues that don't require flushing and cleaning are available. The chipset is another difficulty to resolve. Do I remove the chipset from the OEM inkset or buy replacements?

Cal

 

[jsrockit]

For me I'm looking into spending my money once and being happy. I'm sorry you disagree.

Just trying to save a headache. I figure it is better to have tried than to just assume the OEM inks suck. However, you'll do what you want anyway and there is nothing wrong with that too.

 

[Calzone]

Just trying to save a headache. I figure it is better to have tried than to just assume the OEM inks suck. However, you'll do what you want anyway and there is nothing wrong with that too.

John,

I'm not saying the OEM inks suck. What I am saying is that using the OEM inks has implications of complicating the eventual evolution to Piezography with issues of contamination and extensive flushing with of using Piezoflush or with ink via power flushes.

The high cost of a complete inkset that remains intact that possibly can be sold to offset other costs like brand new carts or a chipset seems like a good way to go.

Like I said I only want to spend my money, time and effort once, and it seems that using the OEM inks increases costs and might be a mistake.

I intend to send Jon Cone a shot from my Monochrom to be printed 20x30. I'm hoping this example from a Master Printer inspires me and sets the standard for me.

BTW I know that I annoy a lot of people with my twisted logic, way of thinking, and my out of the box ways of doing things, but I can't help but be myself.

If using the OEM inks was clearly cost effective I surely would use them, but at this point I don't think it is wise.

Cal

 

[Godfrey]

... the files from the D700 have never really impressed me that much in black and white. ...

I suspect this has more to do with rendering than with the camera. I've seen some superb B&W photos out of the D700. (I've been looking at them because the D700 seems to be falling into the $1100-1300 price bracket and I've accumulated a nice little batch of Nikkor lenses lately...)

G

 

[icebear]

...

I intend to send Jon Cone a shot from my Monochrom to be printed 20x30. I'm hoping this example from a Master Printer inspires me and sets the standard for me. ...

Cal

Hi Cal,
I'd love to see that print ! I'll try to have some 13x19 prints from a DickBlick Art Store made on an Epson 9900 for our next meeting at Puck Fair.

 

[Benjamin Marks]

I have tried Cone's peizo twice: once with an Epson 3000 and once with an Epson 2400. In both cases the ink system ruined the printer -- mostly because I let them sit too long and got massive clogs that could not be removed. I would say that for my printing needs _-- which is to say occasional -- it was not a good fit. I never got along with QuadTone RIP and my print volume was not high enough to keep the print heads clean. The ink was also not quite as light-fast as Cone claimed -- I did my own fade tests and I would say that for household display environment, the fade was about like the HP and Epson inksets that I use: gradual, but real.

If you have the patience to master the software and if you print regularly - -like daily -- then I think that the system can give you a platinum-like set of tonal gradations that has a very nice look. But I won't go back to it until it is more turn key and the stakes for the hardware are lower.

Ben Marks

 

[Calzone]

Hi Cal,
I'd love to see that print ! I'll try to have some 13x19 prints from a DickBlick Art Store made on an Epson 9900 for our next meeting at Puck Fair.

Klaus,

I don't think I will have the 20x30 by the July Meet-Up, but for a $250.00 refundable deposit/collateral Jon Cone will ship you a 13x19 portfolio of his printing on various papers. I assume my cost is really only the shipping. I'm going to inquire about this more later. Perhaps I can make this coincide with the July Meet-Up.

I specifically bought the Epson 3880 because the 9 ink slots allow for both matte and glossy printing without wasting ink because inksets don't need changing.With 6 shades of grey, matte black and gloss black eight slots are accounted for, but there is a gloss overcoat that is used on glossy prints that effectively removes any gloss differential to eliminate "bronzing." Effectively when printing glossy the print is printed twice with some time allowed for the first printing to dry.

I'm thinking on a Barata paper a glossy print with a Selenium inkset would somewhat resemble a traditional wet print. Also want to see what a Monochrom image printed big looks like. I'm thinking spectacular. Meanwhile at home I can try to emulate this sample for prints 17 inch or smaller.

Cal

 

[Bob Michaels]

................. In the balance it is not really clear economically if I should use the OEM inks. .............

Cal: Do not let yourself subconsciously get pulled into the "something exotic is better than the manufacturer" or the "must be better because it costs more" thinking. Myself and a group of others believe we cannot do better than what comes straight out of the Epson box.

Most of us also believe we cannot improve prints by using Roy Harrington's RIP. We find the included Epson ABW to be an excellent RIP. I know Chris Crawford uses QuadTone and I have one friend who does, but I can think of about eight others who think we can do as well without it.

 

[Calzone]

I have tried Cone's peizo twice: once with an Epson 3000 and once with an Epson 2400. In both cases the ink system ruined the printer -- mostly because I let them sit too long and got massive clogs that could not be removed. I would say that for my printing needs _-- which is to say occasional -- it was not a good fit. I never got along with QuadTone RIP and my print volume was not high enough to keep the print heads clean. The ink was also not quite as light-fast as Cone claimed -- I did my own fade tests and I would say that for household display environment, the fade was about like the HP and Epson inksets that I use: gradual, but real.

If you have the patience to master the software and if you print regularly - -like daily -- then I think that the system can give you a platinum-like set of tonal gradations that has a very nice look. But I won't go back to it until it is more turn key and the stakes for the hardware are lower.

Ben Marks

Ben your points are well taken. Extensive use and printer storage are real issues to contend with. I find that there is a lot of information on Jon's site, but it does not seem like a turnkey system. I also agree that the hardware requirements to to Piezography right are not small or inconsequential.

It does seem like Piezography is a form of extreme printing to up the quality. As an artist my training is for problem solving is an asset and on top of that I'm stubborn. LOL.

Cal

 

[Calzone]

Cal: Do not let yourself subconsciously get pulled into the "something exotic is better than the manufacturer" or the "must be better because it costs more" thinking. Myself and a group of others believe we cannot do better than what comes straight out of the Epson box.

Most of us also believe we cannot improve prints by using Roy Harrington's RIP. We find the included Epson ABW to be an excellent RIP. I know Chris Crawford uses QuadTone and I have one friend who does, but I can think of about eight others who think we can do as well without it.

Bob,

Thanks for the helpful advice. I'm really on the fence (see John's post above). I won't be loading any ink until the fall. If I load and use the OEM inks there could be a later cost if I ever make the jump to Peizography.

Also know on another thread I found very helpful your insights about archiving digital work. What you said seemed practical, about a reasonable amount of work that should be saved and organized that was retrievable, and that the only thing permanentand archival are prints that are properly stored.

Know that my research has already indicated that the Epson K7 inkset is superb.

Cal

 

[Benjamin Marks]

It does seem like Piezography is a form of extreme printing to up the quality. As an artist my training is for problem solving is an asset and on top of that I'm stubborn. LOL.

Cal

Cal:

I think you are going about it the right way: gathering your data and making an informed choice. If was printing within the limits of the system I would consider it again, because I liked the look of the prints -- particularly on a nice heavy water color paper like Arches. For me, I would have to have a body of work in mind and be committed to printing daily.

I think that for anything less (and if I had to do it again) I would do what you are with your test print from Cone Editions. If I had spent my money on the services of a dedicated printing professional, I think I would have come out ahead on a price-per-print basis and I would have the hard-copies that I think are so appealing and so important as a record of what I had seen.

Best of luck.

Ben

 

[Calzone]

Cal:

I think you are going about it the right way: gathering your data and making an informed choice. If was printing within the limits of the system I would consider it again, because I liked the look of the prints -- particularly on a nice heavy water color paper like Arches. For me, I would have to have a body of work in mind and be committed to printing daily.

I think that for anything less (and if I had to do it again) I would do what you are with your test print from Cone Editions. If I had spent my money on the services of a dedicated printing professional, I think I would have come out ahead on a price-per-print basis and I would have the hard-copies that I think are so appealing and so important as a record of what I had seen.

Best of luck.

Ben

Ben,

Many thanks. Since the credit crisis I've been on a shooting binge in a rather obsessive way. During this time I learned a lot about exposure and development, but I also annoyed mucho people because I concentrated and only performed image capture. At one point I was shooting an average of 50-60 rolls a month which was unsustainable.

Now I own a Monochrom. I intend to continue to shoot film for wet printing, but now is the time where I have to deal with a serious backlog of printing. I know that doing anything well requires full imersion and a focused discipline, but printing can get way out of control in an expensive way. I'm carefully planning to make the most of my finite resources.

Thanks again for your encouragement.

Cal

 

[mdarnton]

My experience was similar: two clogged epson large format printers, a ruined continuous flow system, and on top of that a bad response from the Cone people when their system went into printing green prints (a very long period of denial from them, while customers were screaming on forums).

The whole thing put me off B&W printing entirely until last month when I bought a Canon Pro-100 printer. Personally, after my experiences with Epsons and clogs--even with their own inks, in five different printers--I won't ever be buying another Epson printer. I've had Canons for about the last six years, and they never fail me. The new Pro-1200, with its three-black B&W printing was icing on the cake, and then the recent rebate that permitted me to buy one for $89? Pure ice cream on cake and icing.

B&W Canon prints on Hahnemuhle photo rag pearl are beautiful, by the way.

I have tried Cone's peizo twice: once with an Epson 3000 and once with an Epson 2400. In both cases the ink system ruined the printer -- mostly because I let them sit too long and got massive clogs that could not be removed. I would say that for my printing needs _-- which is to say occasional -- it was not a good fit. I never got along with QuadTone RIP and my print volume was not high enough to keep the print heads clean. The ink was also not quite as light-fast as Cone claimed -- I did my own fade tests and I would say that for household display environment, the fade was about like the HP and Epson inksets that I use: gradual, but real.

If you have the patience to master the software and if you print regularly - -like daily -- then I think that the system can give you a platinum-like set of tonal gradations that has a very nice look. But I won't go back to it until it is more turn key and the stakes for the hardware are lower.

Ben Marks

 

[Calzone]

Hi Cal,
I'd love to see that print ! I'll try to have some 13x19 prints from a DickBlick Art Store made on an Epson 9900 for our next meeting at Puck Fair.

Klaus,

I made a reservation to get a 13x19 portfolio from Jon Cone Studios shipped to me that I will bring to the July 28th NYC Meet-Up. I will finalize this loan tomorrow.

For interested parties the NYC Meet-Up is at Puck Fair at 1:00 PM on July 28th. See the NYC Meet-Up thread for more details.

Cal

 

[GaryLH]

My experience was similar: two clogged epson large format printers, a ruined continuous flow system, and on top of that a bad response from the Cone people when their system went into printing green prints (a very long period of denial from them, while customers were screaming on forums).

The whole thing put me off B&W printing entirely until last month when I bought a Canon Pro-100 printer. Personally, after my experiences with Epsons and clogs--even with their own inks, in five different printers--I won't ever be buying another Epson printer. I've had Canons for about the last six years, and they never fail me. The new Pro-1200, with its three-black B&W printing was icing on the cake, and then the recent rebate that permitted me to buy one for $89? Pure ice cream on cake and icing.

B&W Canon prints on Hahnemuhle photo rag pearl are beautiful, by the way.

Is the canon 1200, have the heads as part of the cartridge like the older design or it now more like the Epsom where the head is essentially non-removable?

Gary

 

[GaryLH]

Cal


Thanks for the 3880 recommendation. But I am not sure right now if the amount of printing will justify the 3880.

Right nowi am leaning toward the 2880. But I am also going to investigate the Canon.

Gary

 

[sojournerphoto]

I've got a 3880 and the output on Ilford Gold Fibre Silk (or equivalents) is really excellent. Not tried piezography, but I'm happy enough that I won't.

Mike