gliderbee
Well-known
I'm still not able to recognize fake from real, so I'd better ask here. What do you all think ? Is this a real one or a fake ? Is it at least a real Leica ? If so, what type ?
What's a bit weird: the number on top is the same as here:
http://www.cameraquest.com/luft.htm
Thanks,
Stefan.
What's a bit weird: the number on top is the same as here:
http://www.cameraquest.com/luft.htm
Thanks,
Stefan.
radiocemetery
Well-known
Yes, it is a real Leica. It is a model IIIc. I can't tell if the additional engravings are real or not. Leica Tom and some of the others here at RFF have studied these war time cameras and will be able to be more specific.
The camera body serial number dates it to 1940. The Summitar lens dates to 1949.
The camera body serial number dates it to 1940. The Summitar lens dates to 1949.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
It is no FSU fake. A real Leica, with the appropriate engravings ("Luftwaffen-Eigentum" on the rear combined with a serial preceded by "Fl"). It has the inventory number of a known real one, but a different serial. How and why did that happen?
It may be a duplicate forgery - if it is, a microscopic comparison with real ones would supply proof that the engravings weren't made on the machines Leitz originally used for that purpose.
It may be a duplicate forgery - if it is, a microscopic comparison with real ones would supply proof that the engravings weren't made on the machines Leitz originally used for that purpose.
Vince Lupo
Whatever
I have Jim Lager's book that lists all the known serial numbers. I'll check for you and see, but it looks correct to me.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Comparing the images on a real computer, it is positively odd - the two cameras have the same Flieger inventory number, but different Leitz serials. Were inventory numbers re-issued in special circumstances (e.g. loss or repair)? And how did the lost one re-surface in such a good condition?
colyn
ישו משיח
The "FL" number is the same on all. This was an order number something like a part number.
The camera is in fact a real Leica but some have had fake "FL" numbers and "Luftwaffen-Eigentum" etchings.
The camera is in fact a real Leica but some have had fake "FL" numbers and "Luftwaffen-Eigentum" etchings.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Ah, ok. Well, then it is up to a provenience check, or if that fails, to the microscope experts.
Vince Lupo
Whatever
Serial Number 364474, Shipment Number 19151 to Berlin, delivered 15/10/40. So according to the serial number, it's real. As sourced from Jim Lager's 'Wehrmacht Leica' book, Appendix D. 98 cameras total in that shipment, within serial numbers 364027-364475.
Please note that this info only refers to the body -- I have no idea about the lens (is it marked Luftwaffen-Eigentum???).
The 'FL' number is also known as the 'Flieger' ('flier', hence the Luftwaffe) number, which is an inventory number (38079 refers specifically to a Leica camera, I think). So all Leica bodies that are property of the Luftwaffe would be marked FL38079 on the top plate (though according to Jim Lager, 38078 is also possible).
Please note that this info only refers to the body -- I have no idea about the lens (is it marked Luftwaffen-Eigentum???).
The 'FL' number is also known as the 'Flieger' ('flier', hence the Luftwaffe) number, which is an inventory number (38079 refers specifically to a Leica camera, I think). So all Leica bodies that are property of the Luftwaffe would be marked FL38079 on the top plate (though according to Jim Lager, 38078 is also possible).
haempe
Well-known
From the Luigi Cane list (30 years Leica Historica) the camera with the number 364474 (and the delivery dates you mentioned) should be a IIIb.
Vince Lupo
Whatever
Just checked Rogliatti's list of all the Leica serial numbers, and 364474 is listed as a IIIc, and as we can see from the OP's photos, it is a IIIc stepper. And from the looks of things in Jim's book, it seems that IIIb's were last delivered to the Luftwaffe on 17/6/40, so I don't know about Luigi's assertion that it should be a IIIb. Cameras in the 354400-355000 are listed as IIIb's though. Maybe he and Jim should talk!
Monochrom
Well-known
Hi, the camera coan be real, it´s not difficult to find one from the correct period of time...
Of course the engravings are a different thing.
These engravings were added in a second procedure, in order to know if it´s a real camera you must inspect it in perso (if it´s not certified)
The engravings sould have been done in the same period of time so the use of them should be clearly equal....if you notice sharper edges in the luftwaffen engravings it´s a fake....also the set of engrvings should have the same depth and the letters/numbers should be clean...
All leitz engravingsare considered to be perfect and made under strict quality controls...so pay excessive attention to this....
hope you can get yourself a neat sample....I would like to have a leica issued to the REgia Aeronautica during the war...
Have luck!!!
Of course the engravings are a different thing.
These engravings were added in a second procedure, in order to know if it´s a real camera you must inspect it in perso (if it´s not certified)
The engravings sould have been done in the same period of time so the use of them should be clearly equal....if you notice sharper edges in the luftwaffen engravings it´s a fake....also the set of engrvings should have the same depth and the letters/numbers should be clean...
All leitz engravingsare considered to be perfect and made under strict quality controls...so pay excessive attention to this....
hope you can get yourself a neat sample....I would like to have a leica issued to the REgia Aeronautica during the war...
Have luck!!!
haempe
Well-known
You are right, all other lists I found say IIIc.
Seems to be a typo in the book (or a error in the Leica delivery lists he evaluated).
The lens is too late to be an LE.
From the LE bodies I've owned it looks legit.
What's the shutter look like?
t.s.k.
Hooked on philm
Interesting...
Was this off eprey or a car boot sale for 10 €, after talking them down from 15?
Was this off eprey or a car boot sale for 10 €, after talking them down from 15?
gliderbee
Well-known
I haven't bought it yet, but I think I will, depending on the price the owner wants for it. I'll let you all know.
Interesting...
Was this off eprey or a car boot sale for 10 €, after talking them down from 15?
Vince Lupo
Whatever
Do you know if it has red curtains?
gliderbee
Well-known
No, I don't know. What would that mean?
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Red curtains were used for a short amount of time. Leitz bought red curtain material (alledgedly from Kodak) before the war, to test. They found it did not suffice. But once the war commenced the black shutter cloth supplies were shrinking and Leitz found it had trouble finding the correct cloth within the Reich. As a result they started using the red curtains.
Some cameras have only one red curtain but a limited number was made with two red curtains.
In the end Leitz proved to be correct with the red curtains being sub-standard: a lot of the red curtains developed black blotches, where the rubberized cloth started to deteriorate. Eventually, most red curtains were replaced in the 1940's and 1950's when the camera was sent in for a CLA or repair.
Finding a Luftwaffen-eigentum camera with one or two red curtains in good condition today, significantly increases value. Think additional 25% to 50%, possibly more when there are two good-condition red curtains in the camera.
My assumption would be that this camera has black curtains. It was a 1940-made camera and Leitz likely did not yet have a black-shutter shortage yet.
Some cameras have only one red curtain but a limited number was made with two red curtains.
In the end Leitz proved to be correct with the red curtains being sub-standard: a lot of the red curtains developed black blotches, where the rubberized cloth started to deteriorate. Eventually, most red curtains were replaced in the 1940's and 1950's when the camera was sent in for a CLA or repair.
Finding a Luftwaffen-eigentum camera with one or two red curtains in good condition today, significantly increases value. Think additional 25% to 50%, possibly more when there are two good-condition red curtains in the camera.
My assumption would be that this camera has black curtains. It was a 1940-made camera and Leitz likely did not yet have a black-shutter shortage yet.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
BTW, those are the original strap lug split rings. They are very specific in size and the 'halves' fit together very tightly, making the split ring almost look massive.
Quite a rare find nowadays.
farlymac
PF McFarland
Just a quick question. When you guys refer to a "stepper", are you talking about the ledge under the A-R lever? And which versions would this appear on?
PF
PF